A Conversation On Mental Health: Why Wellbeing Should be a Strategic Priority for Every Business | Faye McGuinness

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The workplace can either help or harm our mental wellbeing. For many companies, support for mental health is a ‘tick in the box’ exercise – but it should be so much more. At mental health charity Mind, Faye McGuinness is working to make fundamental changes to the way companies approach wellbeing at work by making it “a boardroom issue” and a strategic priority.

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Jo Meunier [00:00:17] Welcome to the Future of Work Podcast from Allwork.Space. I’m Jo Meunier and today I’m looking forward to speaking with Faye McGuinness, Head of Workplace Wellbeing Programs at mental health charity Mind. Mind works to improve the lives of people with experience of mental health problems by providing advice and support, as well as campaigning to improve services, raise awareness, and promote understanding of mental health. Now, more than ever, our well-being is under the spotlight as we adapt to living and working during the Coronavirus pandemic, which for some means strict lockdown rules or even self-isolation. And also here in the UK this week, it’s Mental Health Awareness Week. So all things considered, we’ve got quite a lot to talk about. So welcome, Faye, and thank you for joining us today. 

Faye McGuinness [00:01:03] Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here. 

Jo Meunier [00:01:05] Let’s start with firstly, since you joined Mind in 2015, could you share some of the wellness programs you’ve implemented during your time there or that you’ve implemented elsewhere? 

Faye McGuiness [00:01:17] Yes, absolutely. So since my time in Mind, I have been taking the lead on some of our really sort of large, large scale workplace wellbeing programs. So I came into Mind actually to develop and deliver a program called the Blue Light Program. And that program was specifically put in place to support the mental health of people that work within our emergency services, say people across our police services, our fire services, our ambulance trust, and also those people that do the search and rescue role, and volunteer roles. So, yes, and that was my first role at Mind. And then since that time, in my role as Head of Workplace Wellbeing Programs, I have led on other programs that have been focused specifically on supporting organisations to think about how they access information about mental health at work. So one of the programs was funded by the Royal Foundation and it was the launch of the Mental Health at Work website, which is the first stop for anybody who wants to know anything about workplace wellbeing, and also setting up and delivering a program called Mentally Healthy Universities, which is funded by Goldman Sachs. And that’s really a program to look at the whole university community and to really think about how we support both staff mental health, but also student mental health, particularly when we’re thinking about the next generation of people coming into our workplaces. So there’ve been quite a few programs that I’ve taken the lead on, at Mind. But more broadly, Mind has a goal of supporting one million people to have good mental health at work by 2021. So we deliver a whole range of initiatives to support that goal, such as delivering workplace wellbeing training, running Mind’s workplace wellbeing index, which is an index of best practice that employers sign up to, to assess how they are managing mental health in the workplace, and through our range of information and consultancy that we deliver to a range of organizations across a range of sectors. So this is a real key area for Mind, and we work across all sectors of organisations of all sizes to really support employees to think about how they prioritize employee mental health and wellbeing. 

Jo Meunier [00:03:26] Gosh, well, that’s some that’s fantastic. And one million people by 2021. We’ll get to that in a moment because obviously that ties in really closely with the work that we do at Allwork.Space in relation to offices and the future of work. Before we get onto that, I wonder if you could tell me more about the Blue Light programme that you’re involved with when you first started at Mind and this is particularly important at the moment in light of the Coronavirus pandemic. And I understand you’re also working on a project called Our Front Line. Can you tell us more about that? 

Faye McGuinness [00:04:00] Yeah, of course. 

Faye McGuinness [00:04:01] So, yeah, in 2015, Mind began gathering evidence on the mental health of staff and volunteers working within the emergency services. And what we found was a workforce often struggling in silence. We saw the staff and volunteers experience more mental health problems than the general workforce, but were less likely to take time off as a result. And we found that almost 9 in 10, so 88 percent of the people that we spoke to at the beginning of the programme, had experienced stress and poor mental health while working for blue light services. So we knew that we had a workforce here that needed a lot of support. So at Mind, we delivered a programme between 2015 and 2019. And it was a really big programme, very ambitious, but it was really aimed at actively reducing stigma within the emergency services, promoting wellbeing, but also improving the mental health and support of those people working in our emergency services. So we delivered a whole range of interventions. So there was lots of activity around stigma reduction. We did lots of stuff around boosting workplace wellbeing and line manager capability. We did lots of stuff around building resilience, increasing people’s access to information. And what we also did is, we also provided support in response to the Grenfell Tower Fire and the terrorist attacks in London and Manchester, so to provide support to those emergency services workers that may have been exposed to those situations and may have been experiencing trauma as a result of that. So we delivered that programme over four years and we saw really significant outcomes as part of that work. So at the end of the programme, we looked back at the kind of original scope and findings that we found. And what we saw was that staff and volunteers were much more likely to say that their organization encouraged them to talk about mental health. So at the start of the programme, it was 29 percent. But by the end of the program, 64 percent of people felt like actually their organization was encouraging conversations about mental health. And also we asked young people who were experiencing mental health problems, whether they felt like they were getting the right support, and at the beginning of the program, 34 percent of people said yes and by the end, it was 53 percent of people. So we started to really see a shift. And it really shows that actually if you put some dedicated time and resource into really understanding a sector and you actually really work with that sector to develop the interventions that are right for them, you can make a significant change. And so that programme was delivered through our local Mind network. We have over 100 local Minds across England and Wales and they continue to work with emergency services at a local level. And then as a result of the COVID-19 situation, you know, we were very aware that there were those on our frontline who were — who are — putting their lives at risk in terms of going into work and going into their place of work to really protect us and to make sure that we can still live our lives. 

Faye McGuinness [00:06:58] And so we are now delivering something called Our Frontline, which is a partnership between Mind, The Samaritans, Shout, and Hospice UK. And we launched this about four weeks ago now, it’s gone so quickly! We launched this health service as it provides around the clock 24 hour mental health support for our NHS workers, social care workers, our emergency services workers, and all other key workers that, you know, are going into work — so our supermarket workers, our teachers, and all of our other key workers. It provides a call line which is run by the Samaritans for mental health support. It provides a tech service by Shout, which is a 24 hour tech service. It runs bereavement support and advice through the Hospice UK part of the partnership. And then Mind provides all of the online information and resources and toolkits that are tailored to each of these groups. In terms of them being able to access online information and all of that is hosted on ourfrontline.org.uk. Any key worker can access that support now, during COVID-19, and we’re looking to continue that support as we move into the next phase of supporting recovery. 

Jo Meunier [00:08:19] Lots of different companies and organisations pulling together to help people that may be struggling in silence, as you said. And you mentioned earlier about stigma and the stigma that’s attached to talking about mental health. Is this one of the main reasons you think why more people don’t come forward? 

Faye McGuinness [00:08:38] Yeah, absolutely. We know that there is still a huge amount of stigma that surrounds mental health. And we know that one of the places where people face most stigma is within the workplace. And so we’ve done a huge amount of work through the Time to Change programme, which is a programme that’s run between Mind and Rethink Mental Illness. It’s an anti-stigma campaign that’s been running for many years now. And as part of that campaign, we are really started to see a shift in attitudes towards mental health. We know that there is still a long way to go and we know that in the workplace there is still a long way to go. And I think, you know, pre COVID-19, it was an issue in terms of people feeling like if they were open in the workplace, they would be deemed as not being good enough; that their colleagues would look at them as if they weren’t as good as them or they couldn’t do the job as well. People were worried about their career progression; the opportunities that they might have been afforded, they might not, if they disclose that they have poor mental health. So we already knew that in the workplace there was a huge amount of self stigma but also many organisations hadn’t yet started to create the culture where it was okay to talk about mental health. And we’re seeing that change, and we were seeing significant improvements pre COVID-19. And I think, you know, with the COVID-19 situation, it feels like there is a real opportunity here for organisations to really think about the cultures that they create to encourage people to talk about their mental health. 

Faye McGuinness [00:10:08] A recent survey by the CIPD indicated that the highest number of employees were saying that they were more concerned about their staff mental health and well-being than actually being concerned about how to respond as a business to COVID-19. So that’s you know, that’s amazing – I don’t think we would have seen that 5, 10 years ago. I do think in this current situation, particularly with our frontline workers, that the hero narrative that we’re seeing, which is very well-intentioned, can actually be a double edged sword and it can actually cause people to feel like they can’t reach out and ask for support, because if you’re labeled a hero, actually speaking out and saying, you know what – I’m struggling. It doesn’t naturally feel like the thing to do. So we are really conscious about this hero narrative of making sure that we are, particularly for our frontline and key workers, saying to them, it’s okay not to be okay. It’s okay to not feel well, or, you know, you don’t have to fulfill a hero narrative. It’s okay to talk. And so I think, out of this situation, we still really need to think about some of those messages so that we don’t keep that stigma. 

Jo Meunier [00:11:20] And actually, it’s really interesting that you say that, because I never really appreciated that, maybe this hero issue, for want of a better word. But as you say, it’s a double edged sword. And for those employees or key workers or wherever they may be working; for those people who are battling with mental health issues but work for companies that don’t actively support their employees’ mental health, what can they do and what can we do to help ourselves if we find ourselves in that situation? 

Faye McGuinness [00:11:50] Yeah, I mean, it’s very, very difficult, isn’t it, because we talk about the role of an employer to support employee mental health and wellbeing. 

Faye McGuinness [00:11:59] And we know that before COVID-19, we were already facing quite an issue in terms of workplace mental health. So back in January this year, Deloitte did some really, really interesting research which indicated that the cost of poor mental health at work to UK employers is up to 45 billion pounds a year. So there’s a huge cost there already, in terms of not prioritizing health in the workplace. And we know that 29 billion pounds of that is actually made up of presenteeism — so people being in the workplace, but not necessarily being as productive as they might be, because they’re not getting the right support or feeling at their best. Or seeing people working these really, really long hours, but those hours are not productive. 

Faye McGuinness [00:12:43] And so in this current situation, you know, our frontline and key workers are obviously working incredibly long hours, doing very, incredibly tough jobs. So for us, we talk about the fact that there is the role of the employer in terms of making sure that the culture and environment allows people to reach out and seek help if they need it. It’s the employer’s role to make sure that the way that they are designing work, the way that they’re designing people’s working patterns, is conducive to good mental health. And it’s the employer’s role to make sure that managers are equipped to have conversations about mental health. So there’s a whole range of things that employers should be taking responsibility for. But equally, we know that as individuals and as people, we can take responsibility for our own mental health as well, and think about the things that keep us well. So we’ve been talking a lot at the moment, you know, we’re talking to people about how to look after yourself, about some of the things that you could do to complete a wellbeing action plan. So a wellbeing action plan is something you can find on Mind’s website and every individual can complete that. And it really helps you to start to think about, what are the things you need to do to keep you well? How might you spot the signs in yourself if you’re not feeling very well? Who might you want to talk to? How can your colleagues reach out and help you? And actually at Mind, we share these with our manager, we share them with our colleagues, so that it really starts that conversation about your own mental health and how people might spot those signs. And so I think everybody should be encouraged to have their own wellbeing action plan. And I think that there are lots of simple things that sound very obvious, but they’re obvious because they work, and evidence suggests that they work. But, you know, things like making sure that you get plenty of fresh air, making sure that you get exercise where you can, making sure that you’re eating really well and keeping hydrated. Mind are currently doing a role in the Coronavirus survey to understand the impact on mental health across the nation, and what we’re seeing is that people are tending to turn to some unhealthy coping habits and unhealthy eating is one of those. So I think we just need to be really mindful that there are some simple basic things that we do to keep us well, when we’re maybe not in such busy periods; these are the things that we really need to focus on and step up when we’re in these periods. Mind have lots of really useful resources and tools. 

Faye McGuinness [00:15:07] We have a Coronavirus hub on our website. So there is a huge amount of information on there. And I’d really recommend everybody to look at that, to understand more about how they can look after themselves. 

Jo Meunier [00:15:18] It’s interesting what you said a moment ago about making unhealthy choices during these lockdown periods. And here in the UK, for instance, we’ve had quite a long period of time, about six weeks where we were told to stay at home and we were only allowed out once a day. That has recently changed a little bit and we are now allowed out a little bit more frequently to exercise. But for a long time people must have felt — I was one of them, and you yourself as well Faye — it was very easy to feel overwhelmed by that situation and feel quite claustrophobic to be told to stay in your house, not to go out. And that’s quite difficult to deal with, particularly when you’re trying to carry on as normal, trying to do your day job, look after your family and so on. So it is a relief that some of these changes are happening, but it’s… do you think there’ll be long-term effects from this period that people may struggle with? 

Faye McGuinness [00:16:13] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think we went through a period where, if we look at, you know, at Mind we’ve been thinking about the response to COVID-19 in different groups.

Faye McGuinness [00:16:22] So we’ve got a group of people that are currently still working, but they’re working from home and they’re finding themselves in a completely new working environment. So constantly working from home. And what is the impact currently on their mental health, and the long-term impact? And then we’ve got a group of people that are no longer working, whether they’ve been furloughed, whether they’ve been made redundant, whether they’re losing their business. But, you know, these people suddenly find themselves in a situation where they’re not working and we need to understand what the impact on them is now and in the long term. And then we’ve got, as I say, our frontline workers, so our NHS, our social care, and our emergency services workers, and then we’ve got all other key workers. There’s a lot of groups there that we need to think about, and think about actually what the impact might be on them. And I guess a lot of the conversation, understandably, is how do we support those people as we’ve been going into lockdown and while people are in that situation. We, what we’re seeing in our Mind and Coronavirus survey is real anxiousness about people returning to work, and returning to what they’re not sure will be the new normal. There’s various reasons for that. Feeling anxious about the fact that they still might catch the virus. There are people feeling anxious about the amount of time that they’ve spent isolated and suddenly going back into an environment where there’s lots of people. I think as a nation, you know, there are many, many people feeling anxious at this current time. But we have to recognize that there are also people with existing mental health problems and people that, you know, that experience anxiety and this is heightened anxiety. So there is so much that we need to think about in terms of, you know, all of these different groups and what the impact is going to be. 

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Faye McGuiness [00:18:09] And I think the reality is, we don’t necessarily know all the answers. But I think that what employers need to be doing more than ever at the moment is talking to their staff, finding out what their concerns are, what their worries are. Particularly as we start to go into that return to work phase, people need to be having conversations with individuals about how they’re feeling, the impact on them. Employers need to be thinking about a phased approach, and what wraps around all of that is communication — why are people returning? Some people might be returning, some might not. And so that communication as to why an organization has taken a particular approach is going to be so vital at the moment.

But yeah, I think it’s fair to say that, we found ourselves in a situation where I guess as a collective, we’ve all been feeling anxious about this thing, that feels very unknown. But I think, going back to my point, I do think we have a real opportunity here for employers to think about, what other things can we implement during this time to really help our staff’s well-being. And how do we continue that when we go back to whatever the new normal looks like? How do we continue that? You know, I liken it to resilience. We talk about resilience. There are a lot of people who don’t like that word because it feels like it puts the onus on bouncing back. At Mind we don’t talk about it as bouncing back because actually what we recognize is when you go through some really difficult things in life, you learn from those experiences and actually that can help enhance your resilience. And you learn from that time to help you face those kinds of situations going forward. And that’s how I want to think about this scenario, and employers should really think about the good stuff that they did during this period and how can they continue to do that?

Jo Meunier [00:20:06] Absolutely. 

Jo Meunier [00:20:08] And wellness at work is such a huge topic, particularly now, as you mentioned, a lot of people are feeling anxious about returning to work. And I know there’s an awful lot of conversations going on in the workplace industry about how do we make our workplaces safe, so that people have the confidence they need to come back into the office. And there’s a lot of conversations going on about how they can make it clean and change the way the offices are laid out to enable people to come in and move around without feeling upset or worried about suddenly coming face to face with somebody and what you do in that situation. So there’s a lot of thought going into that. And in terms of those companies who want to improve their office culture and they want to become more open and supportive of their teams, now, particularly but also in a broader sense, where should they start? And what initial steps should they take to make positive changes in the workplace? 

Faye McGuinness [00:21:05] Yes, so at Mind we talk about three buckets. We talk about how you promote well-being for everybody. So as an employer, you should be thinking about the things that you do that promote good mental health for everybody within your organisation. So if you think about that bucket, what do you do to raise awareness about mental health? You know, what kind of things do you put in place to support people to be well? So, for example, the employee assistance program, you know, what kind of thing do you support your employees with in terms of well-being? So there’s a whole thing about promoting well-being for everybody. So I would encourage all employers to be thinking about that. And then you’ve got the next bucket, which is how do you support people that are experiencing mental health problems? Because you will have people within your organization who experience mental health problems. So what support and tailored support do you have for those individuals should they need it? And then the third bucket, which for me is so important, is about understanding things in your organization that drive core mental health. So, you know, we talk a lot and, you know, there’s lots of conversations for many years about employers rolling out training, doing awareness days, you know, doing some really brilliant initiatives that are all really, really important. But actually, the conversation started to dip, pre COVID-19 slightly. So that’s all very well, but actually, what are employers doing to really fundamentally change the way that we design work so that it isn’t causing people to have poor mental health at work? And I use the example of health and safety. We’ve been speaking about health and safety for many, many years now, but really we’ve been talking about safety. And actually, you know, if a hole was to appear on the floor in your office and an employee fell down it and broke their leg, an employee would do everything they possibly could to make sure that nobody else fell down that hole. It would be covered off, it would be protected, there’d be signs, there’d be warnings. And that shouldn’t be any different to mental health. You know, if there is something that is happening in your organization that is causing people to be unwell, then that needs to be looked at and that needs to be addressed.

So it’s really important that employers look at those three buckets. And the first step that they can take is to look at something called the Mental Health at Work Commitment. The Mental Health at Work Commitment is a set of six standards that we recommend that all employers sign up to as a bare minimum to support the mental health and wellbeing of their staff. And you can find the Mental Health at Work Commitment on something called the Mental Health at Work website, which, as I said, is the first stop for anybody that wants to know anything about workplace mental health. But that is a really good starting point for employers to kind of start to develop a bit of a roadmap about how they can support staff, mental health and wellbeing. It’s important to say that that commitment was launched at the end of last year and it was pre-COVID. But all of it still applies because we can’t forget that those fundamental issues and drivers were there pre COVID-19. And they will still be there when people return to work. So they need to be tackled. But then also what people need to do is look at what they’ve learned through COVID-19 that can really enhance the support that they provide to employees. 

Jo Meunier [00:24:30] And in terms of office design, what type of physical attributes can support mental health at work? For example, you mentioned earlier that getting out and enjoying exercise and being outdoors in the sunshine, that can help enormously. So how important is it to have attributes such as natural light or views of nature or places to get out and walk? How important is that when designing workplaces? 

Faye McGuinness [00:24:56] Yeah, it’s so, so important. Our physical environment really, really does have an impact on how we feel. And it also has an impact on whether we feel valued or not. 

Faye McGuinness [00:25:07] You know, knowing that your employer wants to kind of invest in the kind of environment that you need to spend so much of your time in… yeah, it really does, I think, make people feel valued or not so valued. So all the things that you’ve mentioned, especially natural light, is so important. Unfortunately, we can’t all have news of nature, particularly if you work in London, you’re less likely to have those views! So why not put some really nice pictures up on your desk? You know, why not have a nice wall in the office that actually has some really nice pictures of nature. So actually, you might not be able to see it out of your window, but you can go to that wall and look at those pictures. I think having places to walk, again, a lot of that is determined on where your office is. But absolutely, employers should be providing adequate breakout areas. And not just breakout areas for lunch, but at Mind, we have what we call quiet rooms. So people go in there and spend a bit of time on their own and you can just put a sign on the door if you just need a bit of time out. You know, we recognize that the work we do, we are sometimes having really difficult conversations and hearing some difficult things. So, you know, we have a breakout room and particularly if you want to have a conversation with someone about how they’re feeling — because you don’t really want to be doing that in the middle of a kitchen when everybody’s coming in and out making their tea. So those breakout rooms for conversation are really important. And I think another thing to mention is that we know that many, many more organizations are starting to, you know, hot desk and change their way of working in terms of people not having fixed desks themselves and, we apply that at Mind as well. So I think it’s really important where organizations are going towards that way of working that there are really clear policies around that. There’s really clear, practical advice. You know, even before COVID-19, making sure that there was proper cleaning equipment so that people felt like they were coming to clean desks in the morning. So just make sure that if you are going towards that kind of hot desk way of working, that you’re really clear with people what that means. Because for so many years, we were all used to having our own desk and we could decorate how we wanted it and have the things that we wanted on it. So I think, yeah, that’s important. And the only other thing I would say is actually there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that plants can have a really positive impact on people’s mental health and well-being. So if you’re able to get some lovely plants in your office then that’s highly recommended. 

Jo Meunier [00:27:42] Absolutely. And I love the idea of a time out room. That’s fantastic. I want one and maybe a nap room as well!

Faye McGuinness [00:27:49] Yeah, yeah. I’d go to a nap room!

Jo Meunier [00:27:55] And one of the things that I’ve learned during this conversation with you, Faye, is that it’s really important to talk. That’s one of the most important things to help… get the conversation going. And actually something that we’ve seen in the flexible workplace industry is that the popularity of coworking has soared in recent years. And a lot of that is to do with the communities that are formed within them. And I just wanted to know, in your experience, what role do you think workplace communities play in helping people overcome feelings of loneliness and isolation in their day to day lives? 

Faye McGuinness [00:28:28] I think it plays a huge part. If you think about the amount of time that we spend in work, and the connections that we make at work, they’re often so much more than just, you know, you’re working with a colleague. People form friendships at work. For a lot of people, it’s where they have quite a lot of their social interactions. And so that sense of community in the workplace for a lot of people is really important. And, we’re hearing from employees and employers at the moment that’s been the thing that’s hit people the most, particularly those staff that might be on furlough, feeling that lack of connection. And we’re really encouraging any employer who has staff on furlough to make sure that those staff still feel connected to the organization and where social interactions are happening remotely, make sure that they’re still included in those.

So the community plays a really, really key part. And one of the things that we talk about is the five ways to wellbeing. So the New Economics Foundation did some research that showed that there are five ways to wellbeing and one of those is connection. Connection is so important in terms of making sure that we’re looking after our mental health and well-being. So I think during this time, while we are all working remotely and away from each other, it’s really important that employers are putting in time and space in the diary — and it shouldn’t be at the end of the day or an add on to the end of the working day — it should be part of the workday where staff can get together and have that connection with each other. I think we need to recognize that for some people, that sense of community doesn’t have to mean large groups. Some people find that quite difficult. So, you know, you can have a community of people, two people providing each other peer support. So it’s really important to think about what works for each individual. And Mind has sites like Ellie’s Friends, which is a peer support community that people can join up to, if they’re feeling unwell, and they want to chat to other people about their experiences and how they’re feeling. So, yeah, community is a really big one. And I think that more than ever, employers need to be really inventive about how they’re building those communities during this time. 

Jo Meunier [00:30:47] Fantastic. And, last question because I know you’re very busy and I don’t want to keep you any longer, but looking ahead… we know that wellness plays an absolutely massive role in the future of work. So in your view, Faye, what’s next for mental health in the workplace? And what changes do you see coming in the future? 

Faye McGuinness [00:31:06] So I think that the future of mental health at work is that it is going to become more of a strategic priority for businesses. I think more and more we are going to see this as a boardroom issue. We knew, as I say, pre COVID, that there was already a huge business case for employers prioritizing mental health at work. So, you know, if you take away the human side of it, which is the most important side, it’s very clear that there is a business case and a case for ensuring that you prioritize mental health at work to make sure that you have the most productive workforce. But actually, when you bring the human element in, it is the right thing to do. And actually, if you have a happy, committed workforce then that workforce is only going to be more committed to you as an employer. So I do think that the future of work will see more employers take this on as a strategic priority. And I think the conversation will move from — what are the kind of activities and interventions that we can put into the organization, maybe as a bit of a tick box, maybe to do this half heartedly — but it will become actually what do we need to fundamentally change to make work a better place for our employees and for the people that come to work for us. So I think that we’re going to… I’m always a positive person, and I think that COVID-19 is going to give us a bit of a catalyst, an opportunity for more employers to get on this journey. We already started to see some brilliant employers starting to really embrace this. But I think we’re now in a position where we’re going to see more.

And I think we’re also going to see a lot more, demand is probably the wrong word, but a lot more young people coming into workplaces expecting that the workplace provides good mental health and wellbeing support. So actually, it becomes a bit of a competitive advantage for employers, to make sure that they are doing this and they’re doing this well. So we’re starting to see more link-ups between universities and workplaces and how they can think about this. But, you know, I think it’s going to be positive. I think I’m optimistic that we’re going to see some good changes come out of this. 

Jo Meunier [00:33:26] Fantastic. I agree. And ending on a positive note is even better. So I just want to say thank you very much Faye, it’s been really good to talk to you. 

Jo Meunier [00:33:35] And I also wanted to ask you one last time, can you tell us about those web links where people can go to find out more about Mind and the resources that you mentioned? 

Faye McGuinness [00:33:44] Yeah, absolutely. So I’ll give you two links. So one is the Mind Coronavirus Hub, which is www.Mind.org.uk/coronavirus  You can also go on to the Mental Health at Work website which is specifically around workplaces and that’s www.mentalhealthatwork.org.uk/coronavirus  

Jo Meunier [00:34:10] Okay, fantastic. Well, that’s wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us. And we look forward to having you on the podcast again soon. 

Faye McGuinness [00:34:18] Brilliant. Thank you so much. 

Jo Meunier [00:34:20] Thank you, Faye. Have a good week. 

Faye McGuinness [00:34:22] Bye Bye!  

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