Dr. Gleb Tsipursky – The Office Whisperer
Nirit Cohen – WorkFutures
Angela Howard – Culture Expert
Drew Jones – Design & Innovation
Jonathan Price – CRE & Flex Expert
About This Episode
In this episode of The Future of Work® Podcast, Frank Cottle sits down with Tony Jamous, founder and Executive Chairman of Oyster, a B Corp-certified global employment platform. With a visionary take on the post-pandemic workplace, Tony explores how distributed workforces, AI, and conscious leadership are transforming not just how we work—but why we work. From removing geographic hiring constraints to rethinking the very purpose of companies, this conversation unveils the profound economic, environmental, and human impact of global employment models. Whether you’re a startup leader, HR exec, or policy maker, this episode offers future-forward insights on capital, workforce access, and business sustainability.
About Tony Jamous
Tony Jamous is the founder of Oyster, the B Corp-certified global employment platform that aims to remove the barriers to remote work and distributed hiring. Tony now serves as the Executive Chairman. Previously, he was the CEO of CPaaS provider, Nexmo (now Vonage), before exiting in 2018 and launching Oyster in early 2020. With Oyster, Tony hopes to make it easier for companies everywhere to hire people anywhere.
What You’ll Learn
- Why distributed work could triple the global GDP
- How AI is transforming workforce needs and economic expectations
- Why the office is becoming optional, not essential
- How Gen Z is reframing work through experiences over ownership
- What corporate leaders must unlearn to lead distributed teams
- How remote work unlocks freedom without compromising productivity
- The link between global employment and planetary sustainability
- What “micro-shocks” mean for leadership, capital, and system redesign
- Why conscious leadership might be the key to long-term company growth
- How asynchronous systems can fuel high-performing global teams
Transcript
Tony Jamous
[ 00:00:00,000 ]It’s also about fear, right? The leaders today, if you’re attached to something, anything, attached to your role, to your position, to your salary, to your status, to the power that this role gives you, then all of that fear and attachments is in the way of the success of your team and your organization. So you have to do your own work. You have to look inside of yourself and let go of these fears, let go of these attachments in service of everybody’s success, including you. Like in my case, I’m the largest shareholder in the business. So it’s in my best interest too. To step aside from the day-to-day operation and bring the experts. To take this company and the team to the next level.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:00:43,990 ] Tony welcome to the future work podcast uh we’re really excited to have you here today and uh Gosh, from our conversation of the other day, I’m really excited. All of our communications systems discussion we had, HR systems discussion we had. And. Remote. That’s pretty cool too. So Tony, what do you think? If I can get right into it, what do you think is the most underestimated future of work trend that’s happening today— the thing that you think no one’s paying attention to, but will really impact us all.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:01:24,940 ] Look, Frank, it’s hard not to mention AI, and I’m sure we’re going to talk a lot about AI in this show. However, Elephant in the room. However, there’s something underneath AI. That is quietly happening.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:01:37,670 ] That is really important for humans on this planet and the planet itself, which is distribution of workers on the planet. That was unlocked by remote work, by the pandemic, when the organization realized that they don’t have to hire people only in 20 miles radius from where they have offices.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:02:00,530 ] and um And there have been a lot of economic literature about this. So let me give you the example of Brian Kaplan, the economist from George Mason University. He argues in his book, Open Borders, that if you remove the concept of borders from talent, mobility. you can triple the world GDP. Right. So today we see a lot in the news.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:02:26,470 ] all the various ways we are trying to create economical growth utilizing over-utilizing planet resources, but actually the solution is right there. It’s about distributing work on the planet.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:02:39,080 ] people, especially in emerging economies, the opportunity to grow their professional career, to grow their economical output.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:02:48,880 ] and um That is the biggest underlying trend. that I see happening in the last few years. And it’s a very good news for the planet and for the people.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:03:00,410 ] When you say it, you make a bold statement like triple or quadruple. the global GDP.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:03:08,000 ] The reason that a lot of companies historically have gone offshore that was the first phase— call centers, processing centers, etc.— to lower their operating costs with a more efficient, a more cost-effective workforce.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:03:26,660 ] Yep.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:03:27,300 ] So in order to triple the GDP, do we still look for economic efficiency by relocating workforces or choosing offshore workforces out of the primary economies?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:03:43,940 ] US. Western Europe, et cetera. Amen. And if we do, do we?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:03:52,790 ] Do we still get the economic benefit? of the lower cost in those economies.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:03:58,890 ] And if we do, will that still triple the GDP? I guess I’m having trouble with the math. I’m saying, well, if I hire somebody offshore because they cost less, candidly.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:04:11,960 ] Am I just taking money out of one economy and putting it into another, which has been a complaint by government, by different factions?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:04:22,840 ] And if I pay the same there, to raise that GDP.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:04:27,900 ] Am I is there any reason to do it?
Tony Jamous
[ 00:04:31,820 ] These are all great questions, Frank.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:04:35,020 ] Let me put some light on these questions. So first, According to BCG, there’s over 100 million knowledge worker jobs in the West. That are going unfulfilled.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:04:47,660 ] Increasingly, AI is creating even bigger talent shortages in these high-talent jobs in the West. And that has a huge impact on the growth of businesses that are located in the West.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:05:02,550 ] But they cannot find the right people. They cannot find enough people.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:05:07,620 ] I agree with that completely. We see the same thing ourselves.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:05:12,450 ] So, just by fulfilling that gap—and going elsewhere to find that gap, specifically in emerging economies— whereas there is 1 billion knowledge workers coming into the workforce in the next 10 years. They’re going to be AI literate. Workers.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:05:28,919 ] You’re going to have a massive economic contribution to Western world economies. But. At the same time, you are going to increase the salaries of these people in these countries because, suddenly, now they are not doing what you used to outsource a low, low talent type of jobs to these countries, right? You’re not outsourcing data entry anymore. AI is taking care of that. So, with this technology, you have the opportunity to elevate human talents in emerging economies to participate in the global economy. And that’s what’s going to lead to the massive growth I’m talking about.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:07,630 ] Okay.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:08,930 ] I’m going to argue a little bit or create some argumentative points. I hope they’re positive.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:16,020 ] Use of AI increases exponentially our efficiency as knowledge workers. We would all agree that. If in the next. period of years, we’re going to have up to a billion knowledge workers.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:34,060 ] Is AI?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:35,750 ] Isn’t AI?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:37,490 ] Going to because of the efficiency of those knowledge workers, reduce the need for that number, so to speak. Are we going to need more? Mechanics to fix robots.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:50,239 ] Maybe using AI.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:53,390 ] Then we are going to need knowledge workers.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:06:57,570 ] Yeah, the type of work will have to adapt and change for sure.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:07:04,490 ] Uh but uh there’s another view of that. Another point of view is that growth expectation will increase with AI. Right. Whatever. Productivity output you expect from workers now is going to be increased. So, uh. So it’s not necessarily having less workers. It’s about reshifting what growth we expect from businesses. And it’s going to be higher expectation. Okay so that that’s what’s coming to shift, you know, today. Uh.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:07:40,210 ] I believe that.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:07:42,440 ] Uh.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:07:43,820 ] As we shift growth expectations, also company valuation will shift as well. Investors will expect higher growth, more profitability from companies for similar type of valuation.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:07:53,440 ] Yeah, they. Um not just should there be some level of increased growth. But the margins and the profitability of the companies should.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:08:04,120 ] Changed as well. And the standards for you know, is a 5% coupon good anymore. or not, you know, and we just say, no, not anymore. That’s going to change. You know, when we went through the Industrial Revolution, when the humankind went through that. People moved out of the country and into the cities. uh, when the in the cities into the factories and the factories took raw materials and created goods that we’re able to be have their costs lowered and reshipped around the world so that people that hadn’t been able to access those goods cost effectively in the past were able to do so. And that created not just a societal shift, but a major economic shift. Yep.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:08:53,800 ] What new products will knowledge workers create?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:08:57,600 ] That can’t be accessed today, and create on a value base.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:09:02,710 ] Reduced cost base, so to speak. That will allow that same type of shift to occur. What new things do you think we’ll see? That this billion knowledge worker base growing every year to that point. Will actually create, that are going to change, materially change the way we live. In the same way that the industrial revolution did with transportation and iron goods and weaving and all the things that Machinery brought.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:09:38,520 ] Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think our needs as humans is going to shift as well. Our basic needs are going to be increasingly provided for by this industrial or post-industrial AI capable machine. We’re going to have more goods, cheaper goods available for humans on the planet and therefore our needs will have to evolve as well into higher. Higher level needs, right? Think about the needs to create, the needs to take care of yourself, take care of your body, take care of your life, take care of your environment, take care of your community, I think the world is going to shift into more distribution. Now we don’t need to be in cities anymore in the same way we used to. Need before with industrial revolution.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:10:32,130 ] So there’s no need to concentrate people in urban areas anymore to create the economical output that we need. So the needs of humanity are going to shift and it’s going to be more sustainable, more about self-connection, more about healthy. Um, healthy way of living, sustainable way of living, and there’s a lot we can do to drive that future.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:10:56,850 ] Well, what I think you’re saying, I could be not interpreting this right, but I think you’re saying a lot of us.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:11:04,670 ] Goods will be available. They’ll be available on a more cost-effective basis for a greater number of people. So, a lot of us and we’re seeing some of this shift today. I think will exchange more goods, my ability to get more stuff, for more time.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:11:22,740 ] And hopefully we’ll use that time productively as opposed to in terms of self-improvement, societal improvement, things of that nature. I mean, that’s a big leap though.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:11:34,990 ] It’s never happened before.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:11:37,960 ] That doesn’t mean it won’t happen. In fact, things that have never happened before happen every day. And thank goodness, thank goodness, I you know that. That’s the human growth uh overall. But do you really think we’ll gain more time or we’ll just try and get more stuff?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:11:53,570 ] And if we, you know, how much do we need, you know?
Tony Jamous
[ 00:11:59,110 ] I think you’re already answering the question in a way you’re.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:12:02,840 ] You’re asking a question because. Yes, you’re right.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:12:06,600 ] We don’t need more stuff. Like this consumerism culture that we created as a result of this massive industrialization. has led us to becoming unhealthy and relate in an unhealthy way to ourselves and to the planet. People are awakening right now that there is need to be another way of living our life and it’s not necessarily around materialistic consumerism. And uh uh, that what actually needs to happen— like the other alternative— which is to continue on this infinite utilization of natural resources, degradation of our environment.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:12:48,670 ] Degradation of our health is not going to be sustainable in the long term. So at some point, I don’t know when they’re going to be this global shift towards more. uh, where less, less stuff and more, more sustainability and more living in harmony with our natural environment.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:13:08,670 ] Oyster is an amazing global platform of HR management, talent management, etc. It’s an amazing platform, I think. And that’s not a pitch. I think it’s an amazing damn platform. Uh, um, do you think Gen Z, the shift we’re seeing in Gen Z, I don’t need a car, I don’t want to own a home, but I want experiences. Do you think that Gen Z is the first generation that is starting to move away from stuff and want more time? If so, it’s a little set up here. If so, how does that impact the way we look at jobs, how does that affect the way we create the structure of a company that’s able to achieve all of this GDP increase?
Tony Jamous
[ 00:14:04,290 ] Yeah, I think first, Uh.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:14:08,390 ] That question that you’re asking is framed with the assumption that we have to have infinite growth. Right. So me.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:14:15,390 ] We’re having population decline in a lot of countries right now, too. So that’s another issue to consider.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:14:21,840 ] But we still have our politicians, our leaders are expecting a continuous infinite growth so that they can print more money. and and and to keep attaching to the power that they have right, so there’s a problem. There’s a problem. This assumption that we need to have infinite growth is not something that is natural; it’s something we created, it’s actually an illusion. Today, when you go look at how indigenous populations are living, they don’t even know what capitalism is. And they’re living in harmony and connection with their natural environment. And they have much less mental health issues. They are happier. So is the goal of humanity is to produce stuff and continue to grow the GDP, or the the purpose of humanity is to be happy, healthy, and positive relationship to your environment.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:15:15,570 ] So that’s what I think the shift needs to happen is in consciousness and why we work. And I always talk about Oyster. Oyster recreated this business that is more like a actually a movement disguised as a business.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:15:30,500 ] Well, we are making I agree globalization of the of labor. Yeah, I agree.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:15:37,570 ] We are making planet Earth one employment market.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:15:41,330 ] A talented individual in Lagos, Nigeria doesn’t feel that they are less than somebody in Paris in terms of their ability to contribute and have opportunity in this world, right? So we brought people from all over the world to work on something meaningful that is about awakening humanity to the fact that we can all have dignity and opportunity to participate in the global economy. I think this is the kind of companies that are needed in the future, companies that are—Um— shifting a consciousness to a more aligned with life and away from the the infinite growth illusion that is hurting us and hurting our planet.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:16:24,940 ] Well, all of that takes capital.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:16:27,400 ] Um, all, all management of the whole process takes capital. Do you think investors are institutional investors, especially?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:16:39,890 ] Are willing to buy off on that and say we’ll be the first— the first to move away from an infinite growth model and a return on investment model and start talking about social capital and environmental capital.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:16:59,620 ] How are we going to raise money to do that?
Tony Jamous
[ 00:17:03,650 ] Yeah, it’s a great question.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:17:04,630 ] Markets will support this theory, so to speak, globalization of employment absolutely technology knows no borders, we agree on that completely. Yeah, you mentioned uh, hiring somebody in Lagos, we hired somebody in Nairobi the other day. And why? They were the best person for the job. Yes. It didn’t matter to us where they were. The hours didn’t matter because the job is a marketing job and it would be flexible in that regard. We just hired the best person we could find. That’s, I think, a characteristic a lot of mid-sized companies like ours, yours, is a larger company, ours is a mid-sized company. are embracing. I just want the best. I don’t care. our own sea level team. is in five different cities, four different cities.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:17:51,200 ] um and we don’t think anything about it. We actually enjoy not seeing each other for lunch every day. Ugh. You get tired of the same old jokes. Um, uh, so you know, there is a ben, there is some benefit to having people, uh, remote, uh, even at a sea level on a leadership level, because you become more independent in your thinking, and things, habits don’t form that become tiring. Everything is inspirational.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:18:22,070 ] Um, So back to my question.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:18:26,140 ] Who, institutionally, from a capital point of view, to support this vision, which I think is valid. How is that going to be supported? It can be supported by government, because government can’t tax hire to do it. Or it’s robbing its own people. Governments, I always look at governments as if they’re corporations.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:18:45,420 ] And let’s use the U. S. and China as two corporations. Call them Microsoft and Google for a minute. Um, All governments are really just looking to increase their market share in some way.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:18:58,320 ] In my view, and the profitability of their society as a result of the increased market share. So how they do that sometimes is not real business-like and not real nice. But that’s ultimately what it comes down to. Yes. Two.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:19:14,530 ] I don’t know millennium. Um, you go back thousands of years and you can say, uh, what was Alexander the Great all about, uh, increasing his market share.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:19:25,660 ] So this is a pretty historic thing. So do you think capital will be available for the change such as you’re suggesting? And how so?
Tony Jamous
[ 00:19:35,470 ] I don’t think in the immediate term. I think that the incentives are designed today, of the system, in opposition of that vision. Uh, so but that system is actually not sustainable. Right, you cannot continue to increase your market share at the expense of others and the planet. So at some point you’re gonna hurt an obstacle— and that obstacle can be, will lead you to rethink these incentives.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:20:06,230 ] And you can think you can argue this is, you know, what happened in Europe after World War II. Right. Today, Europe’s growth expectations are lower than other countries. Right. Other great economies, so but you know people here in Europe— are they live healthier than other places and therefore they have, Although it’s not perfect, they have.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:20:30,520 ] They preserve their environment more than others.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:20:33,860 ] I think there needs to be a shock to the system. There needs to be a challenge that the system will face until it readjusts its incentives to lower its growth expectations.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:20:45,510 ] Shock. I like that comment.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:20:48,240 ] How would you shock it? What would you do to shock that system into recognition?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:20:54,690 ] Does it take, what type of cataclysmic or?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:20:59,780 ] Um, event or epiphany, global epiphany, if there could be such a thing— an awakening— if you event.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:21:09,160 ] Would cause that shock to have enough impact to make the change.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:21:14,870 ] I think you don’t need to do anything. I think it’s happening for the system itself right now.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:21:19,680 ] Uh, the system itself has become unhealthy to itself. So you see it today, right— in geopolitical tension, economical shocks.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:21:32,380 ] Higher level of volatility in the markets.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:21:35,940 ] Um, you see it in— in increasing levels of nationalism, in increasing levels of protectionism. All these things are signs that the system is afraid and it’s actually need a reset.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:21:58,610 ] Well, I agree with that. I agree. I think we’re in a period of what I call withdrawal.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:22:04,750 ] That we’re all backing into our comfort zones and putting a wall around ourselves or our philosophies in some way. Which is the antithesis of what we want for global remote work. But work transcends— oftentimes, professionalism transcends a lot of politics too. So, you know, there’s a middle ground there. But that’s not a shark.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:22:27,090 ] This is the antithesis of a shock that we’re going through. We’re withdrawing into ourselves more than [ booming out]. To something that’s going to cause material change. Unless it happens to be, unfortunately, something like a war, which is shock.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:22:47,010 ] That’s never really proven to be productive.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:22:50,130 ] Actually, you know, it could be that.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:22:54,250 ] kind of they are micro shocks. Right? They’re not like a big one, big shock. Right? So there’s these kind of small steps that are leading towards this global awakening. And today you see it in business, right? I mean, when we saw that in the US there is a higher degree of immigration barriers was what happened with the H-1B restrictions. We see businesses in the US diversifying their sources of talent and hiring more abroad, right? They still have.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:23:22,870 ] The change of the visa process, all that did was increase efficiencies and send money overseas.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:23:30,750 ] That’s all that did, in my view. Not necessarily good or bad, but you could see the immediate outcome and the change in the hiring policies. You certainly would see that. Yes. To recognize it as well. So I kind of chuckled at that whole process. Overall.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:23:49,730 ] Um, What do you think?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:23:53,260 ] Corporate leaders need to do today.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:23:56,290 ] To deal with this, microshocks or two contribute to this process in a way that still sustains their capacity to support their shareholders, their capital base, because if that erodes, then the company erodes.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:24:11,620 ] Yep.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:24:12,110 ] We know that. Overall. So what should leadership do today?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:24:18,940 ] I’m an old leader.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:24:20,900 ] Maybe good or bad or ugly, I don’t know what. When should leaders say, ‘Their style is no longer the style that’s right.’
Frank Cottle
[ 00:24:29,880 ] down. and take a different role.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:24:33,440 ] In today’s marketplace.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:24:36,610 ] You’ve done that. Changed my role a little bit. I know some other people are doing the same thing. Uh, Is there a time or is it just an individual?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:24:48,220 ] It’s time for me and it’s time for me now. Is there enough of a change in leadership needs? That this should be a wholesale event. Activity as opposed to what I feel like an activity.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:25:01,350 ] Yeah, in my case, I just shifted from being the founder and CEO to being the founder and executive chairman and I brought in a new CEO in the business. That is better fit for this next stage.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:25:15,180 ] But to get to that place, I had to constantly be looking at, okay, what the organization needs for me.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:25:21,510 ] Ask myself that question all the time.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:25:24,620 ] And reflect. Do I still have.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:25:29,210 ] The skills, the strength. The capabilities of this company need me. Need for me. And if the answer is known in the future, it needs a different kind of leader. Then, because the leader is at service of the organization, Therefore, it becomes in their best interest and in the organization’s best interest to raise their hand and start the transition process. And this is exactly what I did in service of the growth of the company.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:25:58,490 ] Um, I don’t have the experience to take the company to $10 billion market cap, but I know people who can.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:26:05,050 ] Well, you know, it’s interesting. I like your comment that you’re in service to the company. That’s a great belief of my own is that our purpose is to serve and work on behalf of the company, but the company’s purpose is to serve and work on behalf of its clients. Um, uh, so I think that that service mentality is an important part and I will say achieved only when you have a certain Uh.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:26:36,540 ] when you’ve achieved certain objectives.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:26:39,290 ] and then it becomes a different type of business maturity.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:26:43,580 ] kept. And it’s also about fear, right? The leaders today, if you’re attached to something, anything, attached to your role, to your position, to your salary, to your status, to the power that this role gives you. Then. all of that fear and attachments is in the way of the success of your team and your organization. So you have to do your own work. You have to look inside of yourself and let go of these fears, let go of these attachments, in service of everybody’s success, including you. Like in my case, I’m the largest shareholder in the business. So it’s in my best interest too. To step aside from the day-to-day operation and bring the experts. To take this company and the team to the next level.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:27:27,960 ] Yeah, well, honestly, it’d be my wife’s benefit if I stepped aside. She thinks I work too much. And she’s probably right. But if you love it. If you love it. It. The thing I always say is, you know, did Picasso ever stop painting? Did Beethoven ever stop writing music? If you look at business, not that you’re as great as they were, but if you look at business as somewhat of an enjoyable art form. Creativity.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:27:58,650 ] It is.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:27:59,240 ] We should never stop producing. Never stop producing. It’s just how are we most efficient at it. Yeah.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:28:08,680 ] Rolling back to remote work. Uh, and living offshore with people. How do? Companies that haven’t embraced that a small company— a company with 10 employees— say today that two things. First, in terms of office space, there’s no such thing as occupiers anymore. They’re only travelers. Just. You’re working from a non-office environment. I’m working from a non-office environment today. I’ve got another meeting later where I’ll be in the middle of an office environment.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:28:43,140 ] It’s the end of your day, so you probably won’t. But we work in a variety of places, so we’re traveling all the time. Between environments. Oh. We also think in terms of the best person.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:28:55,910 ] But how do you? Create a structure.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:28:59,490 ] How does a company today, a small person company today, because everybody has an international client and an international supplier.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:29:06,960 ] And.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:29:07,640 ] So why shouldn’t we have half our team be? Distributed as well. Or maybe all of our team. Maybe be a complete remote first team. How do you prepare for that in your education in your planning?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:29:22,340 ] In your capital requirements as you grow.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:29:26,450 ] What’s the preparation necessary?
Tony Jamous
[ 00:29:30,030 ] Yeah, so it starts with the intention of the leader of the organization or of the team. Right, they need to believe at the core that by moving into a remote work model that is distributed is actually good for the business and good for them. Right, for me, I was able to go live in In the East Mediterranean. I live in the island of Cyprus. I live near the sea. I have a great quality of life here, but I can still lead a unicorn company from anywhere in the world. This gave me freedom, so for me, I did it first for myself.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:30:02,550 ] But then, I realized—actually, it’s not only me that needs the freedom, we all need freedom. and uh, but it cannot be at the expense of loss of productivity or loss of collaboration. So therefore, it becomes a necessity to design.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:30:21,330 ] Uh, uh, a work system.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:30:24,990 ] A work operating system that actually can make people successful no matter what they are. The core of that— Uh. system is what we call asynchronous way of communication and collaboration. Like this person you hired. Was it—Which country? In Africa? In Kenya? Uh, that works in marketing. They don’t need to be on calls 10 hours a day. Right. 80% of the work they do, hopefully, they’re not.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:30:53,660 ] Hopefully, they’re not.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:30:56,730 ] We actually find that the people that are the most remote, and because of the timing of convenience, attend fewer meetings.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:31:09,510 ] More productive.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:31:11,060 ] Yes.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:31:12,160 ] You know, uh, I don’t know what your your outcome is, but it’s meetings are the killer of productivity. And I don’t think any of us have fully conquered that challenge yet.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:31:24,230 ] But we do find there’s a difference in productivity.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:31:28,650 ] The other thing we find is there’s a difference in decision making.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:31:33,790 ] Um, you When someone’s remote and you can’t see them. Every moment.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:31:39,970 ] You have to. You’re forced. When you give them a responsibility to give them the individual authority to execute the decisions to fulfill that responsibility.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:31:51,560 ] So even if it’s the same layer of position that you might have at your home office. The decision-making process is improved. by the remote worker versus the in-house worker. We see that characteristic too. of less asking for permission and more action sometimes mistakes always mistakes. But mistakes are generally easy to correct.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:32:17,680 ] What you can’t correct is moving slow because nobody makes decisions.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:32:22,920 ] I mean, This is where we have to believe in humans’ capacity to collaborate at mass scale together, right? I mean, what makes humans unique compared to others? Living beings on this planet is that we have this ability to collaborate— millions of people together, you know. Think about open source software and, we started this, mass-scale collaboration with industrial revolution. Right. We it’s like everybody has to go to this place called the factory to work. And then, when information technology came, well, we moved everybody to the office. But actually, now, it’s another type of factor. Yeah.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:33:06,180 ] Yeah, but now we can collaborate. We have all the technology.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:33:11,180 ] Available to us and now with AI, it is even more amazing to collaborate in a distributed way. We can trust.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:33:18,620 ] Humanity’s capability to redesign how we’re going to collaborate in a way that makes opportunity available on every coordinate on the planet Earth. We don’t need to be in the same place anymore.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:33:31,040 ] I want to ask you one last question. If you and I were to have this same conversation five years from now, asking maybe the same questions or whatever new questions we think would come up, what do you think would be different? What do you think would surprise us?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:33:46,040 ] What do you think would change? So that we, we have to address.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:33:51,410 ] That present versus our current present.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:33:54,830 ] I think in five years, working with AI is going to enable us to realize that work is, in five years, we would have forgotten that we used to go to the office to work.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:34:06,800 ] In five years, the ability to collaborate with other humans augmented with AI is going to demonstrate with us, actually anyone on the planet can create massive value without the need for them to be physically present in any location. And that’s going to be like an absolute truth. Like we’re not going to have to question it in five years from now.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:34:29,880 ] Okay, I got to throw one more in then.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:34:32,650 ] I got through one more in. When you say we’re going to forget we had to go to the office to work, does that mean we’re all going to be working remotely from a non-office environment?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:34:42,810 ] Or we’re going to be working remotely from distributed office environments.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:34:47,989 ] We’re gonna work in a remote and distributed way of working, whether you are in the office or not.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:34:56,210 ] So the concept of office will become optional.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:35:03,340 ] Okay, um, I’m gonna throw a monkey into the wrench here into the thing.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:35:11,310 ] Let’s assume that over the next five years, 40% of all commercial office occupancy disappears.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:35:20,710 ] Yes. That will bankrupt 100% of all commercial property companies. Who were supported institutionally by every major institutional investment organization.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:35:34,750 ] Uh, banks in particular, and companies, and it will also bankrupt them and create a complete collapse of global economies.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:35:47,600 ] We discussed on this podcast that we need some shock to the system. And I think this is— Yeah, no, I’m just saying.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:35:57,430 ] They’re, you know, unintended consequences of good things sometimes happen. So I’m trying to think through.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:36:06,680 ] If that happens, will the companies that have— of embrace this? Still be able to succeed without the capital basis of the financial institutions that have been shocked. Through their own activity.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:36:20,230 ] Take place.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:36:22,250 ] We need to have another conversation. We need to have another conversation.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:36:27,550 ] Let’s leave it at the question mark. Yes. And maybe come up with a follow-up interview article or another conversation next month when we’ve really thought about this a little bit more. Thank you.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:36:44,160 ] I think there’s so much here to unpack. There’s so much here to unpack.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:36:49,150 ] Yeah, we live in a period of accelerating change. I’m really excited about what’s coming. Fire away.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:36:56,050 ] I am too, you know.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:36:58,570 ] I’ve been in business for 57 years now.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:37:03,920 ] And The changes In my first office, my first commercial office that we built that was a flexible workplace, we had a telex for crying out loud.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:37:14,590 ] Facts was like. Amazing!
Frank Cottle
[ 00:37:18,240 ] Okay, so I’ve had the ability to live through the zero technology to AI generation. I’m one of those. Wow. Always embraced it. Always loved it. We took.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:37:33,600 ] First planes I was on were all prop planes. There were no jets. I mean, you know, all this change that’s occurred is just fabulous. Just fabulous overall.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:37:44,380 ] And when you look into the future, you can’t.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:37:48,910 ] You should drag what you learned in the past with you. But not the past itself.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:37:55,000 ] I love that.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:37:55,990 ] So, you know, let’s do this again. If you’re up for it, let’s do this again in a while and really explore this. Because your platform is, I think, like I said earlier, I think it’s amazing. It is totally strong to support global employment in every way possible. And it’s proven to be very, very successful as a company. But the way it’s structured is a leading edge. Change structure that allows companies to do everything we’re talking about. Calendly with. more ease than just hiring at home oftentimes.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:38:31,620 ] So. Anyway, I want to thank you hugely, uh, wish you all the luck in the world and a nice day at the beach tomorrow in Cyprus.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:38:41,879 ] And look forward to the next time.
Tony Jamous
[ 00:38:44,760 ] Thank you for having a friend.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:38:46,530 ] Take care, buddy. Bye-bye.
