Dr. Gleb Tsipursky – The Office Whisperer
Nirit Cohen – WorkFutures
Angela Howard – Culture Expert
Drew Jones – Design & Innovation
Jonathan Price – CRE & Flex Expert
About This Episode
In this powerful conversation, Mark Dixon — visionary founder and CEO of IWG — joins The Allwork.Space Future of Work® Podcast to unpack the real story behind the rise of flexible workspaces. With more than 5,000 locations worldwide and a client roster that includes 80% of the Fortune 500, IWG is shaping the new era of hybrid work. Mark reveals how his frustrations with traditional office leases led to a global revolution in workplace strategy. From debunking the “return to office” narrative to exploring how AI and remote work are rewriting real estate economics, this episode delivers insider insights from one of the most influential voices in the flexible workspace movement.
About Mark Dixon
Mark Dixon, Founder and CEO of IWG, is a global pioneer in flexible workspace solutions. Since founding Regus in 1989 and transforming it into IWG, Dixon has grown the company into a worldwide leader with over 5,000 locations across 120+ countries. IWG’s global footprint includes powerhouse brands like Regus, Spaces, Signature, and HQ, serving startups to Fortune 500 giants including Amazon, Netflix, EY, and Uber. Under Dixon’s leadership, the industry has moved from niche to necessity, redefining how companies view office space. An award-winning entrepreneur, Dixon is also a passionate vintner and agriculturalist, committed to sustainable business and innovative thinking.
What You’ll Learn
- Why the RTO (Return to Office) narrative is oversimplified and outdated
- How IWG has built the world’s largest flexible workspace network
- The real impact of AI and remote work on commercial real estate
- Why managing remote teams is a leadership skill — not a location problem
- How cities like Copenhagen offer a blueprint for future urban design
- The hidden ROI of convenience and employee proximity
- Why flexible workspace is a service — not just a real estate product
- How workplace flexibility gives companies a hiring advantage
Transcript
Frank Cottle [00:00:18] Welcome to Future Work Podcast. I really appreciate it, my friend. Say, you’re the largest operator in the flexible workspace industry and have been for years. What got you into this crazy industry to begin with?
Mark Dixon [00:00:33] Frustration with the real estate industry, Frank. So, this was my 10th business. I was on number nine and I wanted to get some office space and it was painful to the extreme to sign up for it. Whatever, it just didn’t seem right. So I thought there was a better way in conjunction with that. I saw other people had the same problem, you know, they were… sitting around in cafes, this was in Brussels, Belgium, having meetings when they really should have been doing those meetings in properly supported meeting rooms in, you know, in great buildings in Brussels at that time. So it’s a combination of both those things. It’s just a gap in the market really, saying look, the real estate business should be a whole lot better.
Frank Cottle [00:01:25] Well, I think you were part of a movement that started in the late 70s, early 80s. I think, you started in 87, 86, 87, if I’m right, with Reggie Gustafson in Brussels. I remember the two centers that you started with. So that’s a great history and a great ride forward. But now that the industry’s maturing, there’s… tens of thousands of flexible workplace facilities all over the world were becoming a high density in some markets like London as an example. And yet, large business, a great supporter for a while of the industry using our flexibility is saying, everybody needs to return to the office, to the core office. What you take on that right now? How do you think companies
Mark Dixon [00:02:17] So, reporters…
Frank Cottle [00:02:20] Reporters are saying that.
Mark Dixon [00:02:21] of interpreting that, but of course that’s totally ridiculous, doesn’t make any sense. So if you’re a large company with 100,000 or 50,000 workers, you’re not trying to get people all the time, you are not even thinking about it, but when a reporter asks you a question, what they’re really asking is, do you believe in the future of the office? And what they are saying in reply is, yeah, offices are great places to get focus What have you done? But this sort of RTO thing is a sort of, it’s a journalist hobby horse question, which is answered with a yes or a no answer, which is not the right answer. And by the way, many of these companies will say, yeah, okay, next question. You say, how many, well, if you want everyone back in office, how many days a week and they get them back for two days a day? I mean, that’s crazy. It’s even more crazy than getting them back in for five days. So, you know, it’s it’s sort of. This is something that’s in flux. The good news is great future for the office, but it has moved. It makes no sense in the digital world to have people commuting hours a day to go and use a laptop somewhere else.
Frank Cottle [00:03:37] Well, no, I completely agree. I don’t think people have ever minded being in an office with their colleagues. What they do hate though, is that commute and the cost of that commute as well, both to the company as well as to themselves.
Mark Dixon [00:03:50] And also this idea, sorry to interrupt, Frank, being with your colleagues, I mean, look. large office floors. You’re not really with it. You are with four people that sit next to you, around you, right? You’re, you’re not with everyone. You walk in, you meet the four people, you maybe meet someone else, you walk around, but not, you know, sort of not everyone chatting with each other. And it’s not, you know this idea that somehow put people in the same area and they all communicate is a fallacy. Much better spend the money on technology than make sure. the people communicate and it’s right.
Frank Cottle [00:04:30] You would then strongly disagree with Jamie Dimon’s comments, et cetera, and others, Elon Musk, that says, we need to get everybody back to the office so we can preserve or maintain our corporate culture.
Mark Dixon [00:04:46] No, I disagree with the statement because it’s too, this is too simple a statement. So what they’re actually saying is it’s important for people to do focused work. Right now, what they are saying as well, I think Elon Musk is saying and rightly so. If you just say to people you can work from home and you don’t supervise that, then you in fact lost your workforce. You know, it’s how good are you? as a company or as an individual on managing your resource. You certainly don’t need them all in the same office. That is not a measure of management. Many companies operate all over the country. They have people all over every state in America. They can still manage them.
Frank Cottle [00:05:33] Well, your company does, our company does.
Mark Dixon [00:05:36] 122 countries and we have to put a lot of effort into managing remote locations, remote people, but they’re not saying they’ve all got to be back to one central office. They’re not saying that, they’re saying offices are important and that I agree with. No restrictions, no basically an ability to ensure that people have the right work surroundings. as opposed to the wrong surroundings, which can be a homework environment.
Frank Cottle [00:06:12] Yeah, no, it’s interesting. A good friend of mine who lives in the East Coast, Northeast, just took a job with a company out here in the Midwest, in Texas. And they have to move their family. They have to their household. They’ve got to sell a house, buy a house. They’re spending all their time focused on the activity of physically getting to a place so they can be in one spot, rather than being… the most productive they can be, and I think that is the beginning, that’s just the very beginning of where the problem starts.
Mark Dixon [00:06:50] It’s highly nuanced and this is it is not a yes no answer and that is the problem when someone asks Jamie Diamond who’s running a huge company um you know okay do you believe in getting people in an office to do focus work he rightly says yes but having said that they will have a lot of people that work from home and do it very well it’s not all 100,000 people there will be back office people that can easily do what they have to do from home. We are in the office business, Frank. We have nearly 3,000 people that work from home, 3, 000, all in our back office. Because for those guys, the commute is painful for them. It takes a lot of their day. Many of them are working mothers, things like this. They want to be near their kids. They don’t want to two hours away, an hour away.
Frank Cottle [00:07:42] Oh, agreed.
Mark Dixon [00:07:44] And they are doing customer service work over the internet, over Teams or over the phone. They’re not in an office, they don’t need to be there because they’re talking to customers all day.
Frank Cottle [00:07:57] Well, you know, it’s interesting. We don’t have that many employees, but probably our ratios are about the same. About a third of our people work remotely, about another third work in a hybrid basis, the other third work on a full-time dedicated office.
Mark Dixon [00:08:13] What’s right for the person? So as I said, and I think you’re saying as well, Frank, it’s not a yes, no answer. And clearly there’s a huge job for offices in helping individuals be more productive for their company. Equally, there will be people that are really good at working from home, and there’s no problem as long as you can manage it.
Frank Cottle [00:08:36] Okay, let me let me throw a couple of the quick numbers out the real estate related real estate because that’s where you started One day a week out of the office equals a 20% office vacancy factor for a company. And that means 20% less beneficial utilization for the commercial real estate.
Mark Dixon [00:08:59] Not really, but anyway, go on.
Frank Cottle [00:09:00] You go with the example, there’s a material reduction in the benefit of utilizing that space, the more the less you’re in that space. So where do you think the economies of the world are growing, let’s say at two to three percent? Let’s assume that pushes off of space at two or three percent. Where do you think that balance of 40% or 30% of the people are working outside of the office. Where do you think the balance comes back to just commercial real estate? Forget our industry for a second.
Mark Dixon [00:09:36] So if you take a look at the future of real estate present, it will be less and better quality. So when people sort of want to bring folks in, it better be good, because those are not going to come in. So it becomes much more of an experience-based product. So number one. Number two.
Frank Cottle [00:09:59] Also, as you said
Mark Dixon [00:10:00] Yeah, number two, the future of real estate is there will be a lot less and really this sort of nonsense talk about, you know, sort of working from home or it’s not a thing really. People have been working from a home for the last 10 years. I know I have and I know I’m very unproductive doing it, but I work remotely in a hybrid way all the time.
Frank Cottle [00:10:23] Well, you’re you’re at your home now, I think, or thereabouts.
Mark Dixon [00:10:28] Alright.
Frank Cottle [00:10:29] I’m at my home.
Mark Dixon [00:10:31] yeah so it depends on the individual but look the the future of real estate is is very clearly there’ll be less requirement and really the elephant in the room is not um you know people work from home it’s AI that’s going to disrupt far more than anything else you know what i can tell you very clearly is an AI robot doesn’t need an office they need a data center so That is the elephant in the room. In terms of coming back to office It’s not about inflation, it’s not about economies growing, anything. It’s about population. And the real question is how many office workers, knowledge workers will there be in five or 10 years’ time? Now, the key thing there, apart from AI, is the population’s generally, knowledge workers are dropping. Yep. Okay, because of birth rates. So less real estate. Plus, companies want to be efficient. It’s got… If work can be done effectively from another location and I can tell you that the biggest change isn’t with front office people, it’s all back office people. If you go around suburban America, rural America, those massive core centers, 50% of them are gone and the other 50% are going. That’s a big challenge.
Frank Cottle [00:11:52] In your operations and in ours, we all have AI receptionists now that we utilize. And we had, I doubt whether you did either. We didn’t let people go just as we grew. We stopped hiring people.
Mark Dixon [00:12:06] Yeah, but then you’re becoming more efficient, therefore you need less people.
Frank Cottle [00:12:10] Well, and better service, too.
Mark Dixon [00:12:12] Yeah, of course. A computer never doesn’t take absence and a computer never turns off. Look, it’s a new world we’re going into and, you know, this sort of very basic discussion, which you opened your question with RTO, that black and white, it is nothing, that’s one small thing on the spectrum. One small thing.
Frank Cottle [00:12:37] Buh!
Mark Dixon [00:12:38] It’s going.
Frank Cottle [00:12:39] What’s the big thing then, if that’s one big thing?
Mark Dixon [00:12:42] It’s technology.
Frank Cottle [00:12:44] Technology, okay.
Mark Dixon [00:12:45] And then the second big thing is technology. And the third thing is management techniques. It’s not office, it’s about how you manage your teams. How you use technologies to do that. And this idea that you can only get the best out of people when they’re all sitting outside your office is really, you must be a bad manager.
Frank Cottle [00:13:07] Well, we’ve always believed that the best people are where they are. You leave them where they so you don’t disrupt their family.
Speaker 3 [00:13:14] Yeah.
Frank Cottle [00:13:14] and you figure out how to use technology remotely. So I guess we’re either ahead of our time.
Mark Dixon [00:13:21] Get people together, Frank, then you get the questions, they say, well, you know, what about community and don’t people learn at the coffee machine? I think, yes, but you can reproduce all of that with an offsite every month. Just do an off site. Then you force people to get together. Don’t take a chance. And modern technology software programs work on cultivating in the culture. building the culture in the company, getting people communicating so they know what’s going on. By the way, very few offices, you walk around, you ask people what’s going on in the car, they have no idea. They’re sitting in the building, they don’t know. There’s no one talks to them. The company’s a hierarchy, you only talk to the people, you know all the people around. Anyway, it will become, it’s all about productivity. Are they your biggest cost or your second largest cost? That is your people. Nothing to do with, forget real estate, it’s people. So if you can make your people five or 10% more productive by supporting them better in what they do, that is a huge return on that small investment.
Frank Cottle [00:14:31] Yeah, when you look at the economics, real estate has generally been the fourth or fifth cost. People are first always.
Speaker 3 [00:14:38] Absolutely.
Frank Cottle [00:14:38] Thereafter, it becomes either technology or, interestingly, travel. Travel historically, and that’s diminishing, it’s reducing now, historically has been the third highest cost of any corporation. It is gonna be interesting as we see, but as the technology develops, as we all use advanced technologies. Oh, one number just as a relative to remote. You’re familiar with Randstad, the HR company. When they run an ad on behalf of any of their large corporate clients, and they use the word remote work or remote work possible, blah, blah blah. In the ad, they get a five to one return.
Mark Dixon [00:15:22] Of course, yes.
Frank Cottle [00:15:24] So if you’re gonna win the battle for talent, if you are a company seeking to win the battle for talents. remote out, just trumps any argument.
Mark Dixon [00:15:38] But then you come back to this sort of very basic question where you say, well, you know, you believe in return to office or not? It’s a crazy question and you get crazy answers because the answer is not one thing. And it’s hardly not. Anyway, it is developing fast. The need for real estate will reduce in quite a lot of places, but other many reasons together. um but people will want better quality and they want it better located give it to me in a convenient location because i really want to use an office i want to be at home i want to go if it’s down the road love to go there love to get away from home
Frank Cottle [00:16:20] Well, you know, it’s funny, we did a study, god, decades and decades ago, when we first started in this industry, a marketing study, it was really dumb thing to do back then for our company. Um, but we came away with one simple. Relevant thing that still still maintains today and that’s it people want to live Work, excuse me people want a work five minutes from their house and 30 minutes from the client Now 30 minutes form their house in five minutes form the client And and that that’s a real simple Model to think about but it really is true That’s going to change and shift the way the dynamics of central business districts are unless the cost of housing comes down inside of cities Which has been one of the major problems we have the commute issues we do today people can’t afford to live in the city You think that we’re gonna have less commercial real estate. I agree with you. It’s gonna be a higher quality I agree, with you regardless of where it is Regardless of where yes, but how are we gonna redevelop cities or are we going to bother? Because there’s a ton if you use London or Manhattan. There’s more class see office space than there is Class A office space.
Mark Dixon [00:17:34] No, it’s redeveloping. Look…
Frank Cottle [00:17:37] But how are you going to afford to redevelop if you don’t have the density?
Mark Dixon [00:17:41] Look, it’s been redeveloped into…
Frank Cottle [00:17:45] residential.
Mark Dixon [00:17:46] But that’s very expensive for a lot of these buildings, so… Takes an age too. Of course, but it’s changing. Look, the problem is… Let me give you a story here, a short one. Copenhagen, Denmark. that the whole idea of work from home is just they don’t need it because they all live in affordable accommodation 15 minutes from where they work and they cycle to work all weathers we’re on cycle paths they’ve got cheap public transport you know really good trams really good busses really everything really good so getting around in Copenhagen in Denmark, easy. So people have wonderful affordable stuff near to the office and the whole idea you would never ask the question there oh what do you believe in return to the office because they all want to stay in the office it’s because they’re convenient. There’s very few that say oh no I want to work from home.
Frank Cottle [00:18:49] Now, that’s one. Copenhagen, though, is a city of about 650,000 people. And it’s fundamentally a flat city. It’s a five-story sub. It’s six-story city. It’s not horizontal, not vertical. And there are five or six different micro-city centers within. So it’s tiny by comparison to London, Mexico City, New York, Hong Kong, et cetera. And the topography of it allows for cycling because it’s flat, regardless of the weather. And they built the cycling infrastructure. I know Denmark and Copenhagen has the highest cycling infrastructure in the world. So it is really an outlier in many respects.
Mark Dixon [00:19:36] It’s an example, but it’s the very affordable public transport as well. In addition, if you take the example of either London, Manhattan, very expensive. London’s got the most expensive subway in the world, London. has the least amount of affordable housing in London. Now if you look back, both London and New York, you’ve got Stuyvesant City, if you remember, in New York. Yeah, remember it. The thing built affordable housing, I don’t know, in the late 1800s. Same you have, you got Peabody buildings all over London, where they built affordable housing for workers, not for the, you know, high-level workers. And, you know, that is what has to happen if you want to preserve your city, it’s about that. It’s about releasing space, supporting the development of not all high-end apartments, but affordable housing for the people that actually do the work. Then you have a vibrant city, you now, seven days a week, you have vibrant economy. And so the successful cities will be the ones that do that. and you have affordable public transport.
Frank Cottle [00:20:56] Well, where does that lay as we look at flexible workspace? How do you think that helps to shape? How do think flexible workspace itself helps to shaped that model? And where do you see the industry going, our industry as we know it today going?
Mark Dixon [00:21:13] Look, our industry is about convenience. It’s sort of nothing. It is not real estate as such, it’s about convenience
Frank Cottle [00:21:20] It’s a service. It’s service.
Mark Dixon [00:21:21] It’s a service, it’s convenience, it is about supporting workers. So what you will see in our business and others, it just it’s all about coverage. It’s not about one building. It’s about coverage, so if you look at the United States as an example, you know, we’re on about 1500 buildings today, 1500. We expect that we think that is only 10% of what we will do in the US. That’s just us. It’s a market of at least 15,000 buildings all joined up. That’s a single platform and it’s you know, you That the future is a lot more locations. You said earlier you thought the markets are saturated. They’re absolutely not saturated They’re saturated in terms of people doing narrow product lines Who are sort of in the sublet what we would call or I would call the sub blessing business But the ones that are doing service and sort of overall linked up platforms are very unsaturated.
Frank Cottle [00:22:29] Well, we’ve always believed and defined our industry as being the combination of people, place, and technology brought together into a bundled service delivered with a highly flexible agreement. And that saturation point, in my view, 10 years ago, 15 years ago we said 5% of all the commercial office space in the world will be flexible, will be flex space, our industry. Today, I would say it could approach 15 to 20%.
Mark Dixon [00:23:05] Our studies, there’s a JLL study that’s talking 30% and it’s 20-30%. And look, just on our own, Frank, last year we just did our results. We added 900 buildings last year, 24 alone. We would do more this year. And let me tell you, you know me, Frank from long. I’m unhappy with doing 1,000, 11, 1,200. We’ve got to do a lot more. because this is about convenience for our customers. It’s no use having one building. You need hundreds of them, all that they can use wherever and whenever they want. And that’s just what the value add is.
Frank Cottle [00:23:45] Yeah, the industry geographically is moved from the central business district where it started to the second area and right out into the extended suburbs now.
Mark Dixon [00:23:55] Look, 20% of our suburbs are rural locations. We do them on farms, and 20% is still in larger cities around the world. And again, we’re in 122 countries, Frank. This is one of those universal changes. It’s changing in Egypt, Indonesia, everywhere, because it’s technology that’s ubiquitous. technology. the veins everywhere. It’s not, it’s not the, you know, sort of something invested in New York.
Frank Cottle [00:24:30] technology doesn’t see a border. None of these things. Technology doesn’t have a favorite currency.
Speaker 3 [00:24:38] No, shit.
Frank Cottle [00:24:39] It’s non-political, I mean, all of these things that we see that are both disruptive and collaborative at the same time. So I agree with you completely that that is the driver. The challenge you’ve got always, though, is adaptation, the speed of adaptation. You know, there’s the proverbial Luddites that have investment or… political clout in certain areas that just don’t see how to make that work, that frustrate the speed of change, even though we all know it’s coming.
Mark Dixon [00:25:21] changing quickly, Frank, because you see, economics trumps everything. Absolutely. I’m sorry to use the word trumps, but trumps everything and can’t, you know, that’s it. The reason this is happening is because companies get better productivity at lower costs. They like that. HR departments are able to hire people. in more locations with less pain. Don’t have to relocate. That’s the bottom line and that’s why it’s happening. And there isn’t a single company, and I was talking to the CFO, one of the largest companies in the world, with the best cash flow in the word. I think it’s number five on cash flow. And I was very surprised. I said, well, you’re probably not interested in this, but our services allow you to move CapEx into OpEx. But that probably doesn’t bother you because you’ve got loads of cash flow. They say, no, no. We’re absolutely capital light, absolutely, in everything we do. Because we want to pass our cash flow to our investors. Sure. We don’t want to load it up into the real estate industry or something like that.
Frank Cottle [00:26:37] Yeah, well the debt on your balance sheet, if you can free that up, the long-term debt on your balance sheets from leasehold and debt, construction debt, whatever.
Speaker 3 [00:26:46] So it’s happening.
Frank Cottle [00:26:48] available funds, then you have your company faster.
Mark Dixon [00:26:51] Yeah, look, it’s happening and it’s not one of the big problems, Frank, is that people in our industry, they’re very inward looking. So you know, I’m outward looking, I’ve done lots of businesses, and I have another private business that you know about, and you wouldn’t even think of like buying cars, you don’t even lease them, you rent them, rent a fleet of cars, these ones for a year, these ones for three years and give them back at the end. and this is in other industries what we are talking about as if it’s you know a eureka moment has happened in so many other industries already it’s not new
Frank Cottle [00:27:31] Well, it almost follows the concept of what happened with intermodal transportation and all goods and services for supply. The just-in-time concept of needed, you know, available when needed as needed and otherwise not utilized from a cost point of view. And I was at a meeting a few months ago of private equity and venture capital companies. There was about 150, 200 of them. And it was terrifying to me to look at the way they looked at this issue versus the savings they could be making and the investments they make by looking at flexibility first, looking at it last. They were still thinking of it tactically as opposed to strategically. Nine out of 10 of them. And then. The capital has to shift and demand that the company, that their invested companies utilize this flexible model to any degree. You say it’s all about economics. If capital doesn’t demand that, then people are lazy and they’ll do whatever it takes.
Mark Dixon [00:28:50] That’s the opportunity Frank. So, you know, again, it’s, you know, there will come a day when we don’t have to explain what we do. That day is not now, because I still have to explain it. So well, you what do you do? I do this? That’s what what’s that? I don’t know what that is. So you know you don’t to explain to kids how to use a hotel or what a hotel is. They know from the age of five as a hotel. my five-year-old grandson will be able to explain that to you because it’s you know it’s but hotel’s been there for a long time hotels fantastic service you you book you turn up one night you leave it afterwards it’s exactly what you want when you’re when you when you are traveling or going on vacation, whatever. It’s we’re still a way off that and that’s a question of marketing more people use it You know, we’re up to about 8 million users at the moment in IWG and all of our brands And you know if 8 million people get a great service they tell Other people who then start to use it, but it takes time
Frank Cottle [00:30:00] Yeah, I think education of the public or of the business model has been a struggle that God, you and I have faced for 30, 40 years.
Mark Dixon [00:30:10] It’s just about scale. Not over. We’re spending $150 million a year now. My guys, we said we need to be spending $500 million to really make a dent.
Frank Cottle [00:30:23] If that, if even that would work.
Mark Dixon [00:30:26] That would work, Frank. That would. Don’t worry.
Frank Cottle [00:30:29] Well, then spend it.
Mark Dixon [00:30:33] Unfortunately, I’m public, I’ve got to keep turning in a profit at the same time.
Frank Cottle [00:30:37] Oh well, you know.
Mark Dixon [00:30:38] eventually.
Frank Cottle [00:30:39] You know, you’re always trying to get something for extra, I guess. I don’t know if that makes sense. with one thought. Sorry to sandbag you with that, but leave us with one thing that you think from a inside of the industry is the most important single thing that the industry could be doing in order to educate, in order, to grow itself overall.
Mark Dixon [00:31:11] Well that’s a an impossible question Frank. Look one of the problems with the industry we’re in is so fragmented you know it just doesn’t make sense because you have so many people
Frank Cottle [00:31:25] More so or less so?
Mark Dixon [00:31:28] less fragmented because no one’s got any scale so you more or less have the same overheads if you’re you know this you’ve been doing it longer than i have if you’ve got one center or you’ve got 21 centers your overheads are very similar right and and that’s the problem no one has got any scale. So you know what has to happen is there has to be uh some consolidation either of of booking platforms of. Something that brings people together and gives you know small groups in small places or larger groups access to the market So because otherwise you everyone’s fishing in their own pond if you like, you know, there’s always limited fish but then the ponds much much bigger and So I think It the industry as you call it will grow in its offer And at the same time, you’re going to see better combinations which get better marketing which start to get the thing on the map and it starts to become a normal operation and not something that seems to be exotic or you have to explain.
Frank Cottle [00:32:49] Well, Mark, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it today very much. Wish you every bit of luck doing everything, especially getting some time off and going sailing. So, you know, just appreciate your time today and we’ll look forward to chatting soon.
Mark Dixon [00:33:05] Great pleasure. Thank you, Frank. Great to speak.
