About this episode
Bad bosses aren’t just a workplace problem—they’re a leadership pattern that can spread, normalize, and quietly erode culture. In this episode of The Future of Work® Podcast, host Daniel Lamadrid talks with Mita Mallick, a bestselling author and seasoned marketing and HR executive, about her book The Devil Emails at Midnight: What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses. Together, they explore why bad boss behavior happens, how marketplace pressure and personal “earthquakes” shape leadership, and why hustle culture can reward the very behaviors that burn teams out. The conversation gets practical: how to give feedback when psychological safety exists, how leaders can run a weekly self-awareness check, why gratitude builds trust and retention, and how boundaries protect top talent—especially as work evolves with AI, hybrid models, and rising uncertainty.
About Mita Mallick
Mita Mallick is a change maker with a track record of transforming culture and business. She gives innovative, culturally-resonant ideas a voice and serves customers and communities with purpose. She’s had an extensive career as a Marketing and Human Resources Executive. Her first book, Reimagine Inclusion: Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your Workplace, is a Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestseller. Her new book, The Devil Emails at Midnight: What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses, is now available and has recently been named a USA Today, Los Angeles Times, and PW bestseller. Mallick’s passion for inclusive storytelling led her to become a Chief Diversity Officer, building end-to-end ecosystems across big and small organizations and future-proofing brands for today’s dynamic environment. Mallick has brought her talent and expertise to companies such as Carta, Unilever, Pfizer, AVON, Johnson & Johnson and more. She’s a sought-after speaker and coach to start-up founders, executives, and public CEOs. Mallick is a LinkedIn Top Voice with over 200,000 followers. She was named to the Thinkers50 Radar List and is a frequent contributor for Harvard Business Review, Adweek, Entrepreneur and Fast Company on a range of cultural, corporate and marketing topics. Mallick has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Time Magazine, Forbes, Axios, Essence, Cosmopolitan Magazine, and Business Insider. She was featured in a documentary created by Soledad O’Brien Productions titled “Women in the Workplace and the Unfinished Fight for Equality.” Mallick holds a B.A. from Barnard College, Columbia University, and an M.B.A. from Duke University’s Fuqua School of Business.
What you’ll learn
- The three root causes behind bad boss behavior: marketplace pressure, behavior that “trickles down,” and personal life disruptions that show up at work.
- How to address a bad boss without triggering defensiveness, using open-ended questions and safer feedback paths.
- Why hustle culture can create a “badge of busyness” that rewards overwork and breeds poor leadership habits.
- How leaders can build self-awareness with a weekly reflection practice, before asking teams for feedback.
- What “boundaries” look like in real workplaces, and why constant access creates burnout risk and retention problems.
- Why gratitude is not “soft,” but a concrete driver of trust, loyalty, and performance.
- A practical approach for employees working for a bad boss: a future-forward resume exercise and a “get out plan.”
Transcript
Mita Mallik
[ 00:00:00,000 ]When you come to tell me and your father about your bad boss, I’m going to hand you this book. Because, as a friend, mother, sister, partner, coach, all of those things, leader, I’m not going to recommend that you resign every time you have a bad boss. Context and situation matter. If you are working for micromanaging media and it’s a really difficult moment in your career, listen: a bad boss for me could be a good boss for you. I want you to pull up your resume. I want you to actually do a vision. Future, forward piece of work, which is write your resume now, that part of the year that you will have worked for me. Isn’t that interesting? I want you to write down right now. What you will have gained working for me.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:00:39,180 ] Welcome back, everyone, to the Future of Work podcast. I’m really excited today because I get to chat with Mita Malik, a Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestselling author. Top workplace strategist, and LinkedIn top voice. We’re going to be talking about her new book, The Devil Emails at Midnight. And I’m just really excited to have you, Amita. Welcome.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:01:00,690 ] Oh, thank you so much. This is going to be such a great conversation.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:01:03,460 ] Yeah, I’m looking forward to it. And this topic specifically.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:01:06,700 ] We tend to see a lot of. Books and reports and strategies on how how we can learn from good leaders, what good leaders give us. But you’ve sort of changed the script here with your new book, and it focuses on what we can learn from bad bosses.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:01:27,830 ] Why? Why did you write this? Did you have personal experiences? Tell me more.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:01:33,720 ] well the origin story is a few years ago my mother’s home was badly flooded and almost completely destroyed she is now rebuilt in that back in the home very happy but that day that we’re in her home anyone who’s in a home that’s been soaked by water ravaged by fire it is devastating so there i am in my childhood bedroom trying to save things i got barbie dolls that i thought would be worth something on ebay right it’s one is in the corner of my office what am i doing with the soaked box i’ve got medals and trophies all these things we hold on to either we hold on to hold on to and then i find a notebook and someday when we meet in person you’ll see i always still people ask like what’s the best tech tool you’re using are you using notion or using listen i use a lot of things but i still love an old school notebook and i had in my closet a notebook from my 20s and it was a career journal where i had all like vignettes on these three individuals i was working for how terrible awful they were i had names nicknames For them and all this emotion pouring out of the pages, from like, oh wow, years prior, and I’m driving away with my mother from her soaked home, I had this notebook and I thought
Mita Mallik
[ 00:02:38,000 ], ‘Gosh, isn’t this like a mean girl’s burn book moment?’
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:02:40,700 ] It sounds like that.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:02:42,080 ] Yeah, it was, except what if I’m in someone’s notebook? Huh. What if someone had written all these things about me? How would that make me feel? And the whole line of the book is: ‘I’ve been a bad boss and chances are so have you.’ So as you said, there’s so much. Discussion in the marketplace on what good leadership looks like and how we can learn from good leaders. What about bad bosses? And even when we talk about bad bosses, I’ve been guilty. How do you survive the bad boss? How do you spot a bad boss? How do you survive the toxic workplace? But what if we’re doing things intentionally or unintentionally, as leaders, that we don’t know about, that’s making us a bad boss? So that’s the genesis of the book, that notebook that I found from years ago.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:03:22,440 ] Well, that sounds amazing. Because I actually just found. I tend to move around a bit. I’m a digital nomad. And so, this last time that I was moving to where I’m currently at, I also found a notebook from like 10 years ago when I was doing an internship. In France, and it had all these notes of that. I’m not going to say this person’s name, but.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:03:44,680 ] A nickname. You have a nickname.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:03:47,450 ] Of course. I don’t know. But anyway, it was all these things that I used to write down. And just like you said, like these emotions, because I remember that person was. A bad boss.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:03:59,590 ] But at that time, it sort of relates to what you’re saying. At that time, for example.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:04:04,730 ] I did not know what it meant to be a boss. I’ve now moved further up the ladder, and now I’m a boss.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:04:11,900 ] I’ve sort of realized that, in most occasions, no one teaches you how to be a boss.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:04:16,899 ] You learn, yeah, the first time I got promoted, it’s like, ‘Congratulations! Here’s your title. Here’s finally with the door.’ And now you’re— I’m like, where’s the manual? What do you mean? I’m in charge of 10 people? And we make this mistake over and over again. Just because someone’s a really good individual contributor and is really good at a particular thing in expertise doesn’t mean they’re good at being in charge of other people’s careers and livelihood.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:04:40,150 ] I totally agree with that. And as we talk about bad bosses, you say that even the worst bosses offer three important lessons. What are these? What are these lessons that we can take away from bad bosses?
Mita Mallik
[ 00:04:57,280 ] Well, I want to talk about why the bad boss behavior occurs. Those are the three lessons. Why do we become this way? And I think there are three things that I keep studying and researching on how people end up in these situations. Behaving at some moments really horribly and quite badly. First is I’m sitting in the US right now. There is so much pressure in the marketplace for business leaders— it could be tariffs, taxes, policies, we don’t know what’s happening next in many cases, and that is a lesson of external marketplace pressure we absorb and then we have bad behavior. Second, bad boss behavior trickles down. In my house, we say ‘poo-poo’ trickles down, right? I have children, poo-poo trickles down. So it’s your first time as a leader and you’re working for me. And you don’t know what good leadership looks like. You have me as an example, and I’m a terrible boss. And so what happens is you actually start to absorb some of those behaviors. And so again, another lesson that that’s why role models matter so much. Then the final thing, which we don’t talk enough about, is that you could have experienced a personal earthquake— something cataclysmic in your life.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:06:00,850 ] Someone close to you died, you’re sick, someone’s sick, divorce, moving towns, cities, countries, breakup, all the things that we go through and we think we can take grief. And just shove it in the kitchen drawer. And show up at work and everything’s going to be fine. But it’s another lesson around. You know, hurt people hurt people. And it’s, is it fun to vote? I mean, we do this, the devil wears Prada, which I’m so excited.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:06:25,640 ] First movie that might bring me back to the theater, and I don’t know how long, but isn’t it fun to romanticize villains? I do this in the book, but they’re actually really hurt people who are laughing out in ways that they don’t recognize, they don’t realize, and no one’s checked their behavior.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:06:43,260 ] Well, you say something kind of interesting here.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:06:49,530 ] If a team detects that they have a bad boss, is it their responsibility to make that person aware or not?
Mita Mallik
[ 00:06:59,570 ] Yeah, that’s a great question. Listen, I used to think it wasn’t my job to manage my boss. And now I think it is— in this way. I want to help that person be a better leader. Or if it’s psychologically safe, if they’re open to feedback, you’re not going to come up to me and say, ‘Mita, you’re a bad boss. You suck. You might suck.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:07:18,070 ] You know, for example, I’m a notorious micromanager.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:07:22,680 ] Mita, you changed all these details and redlined the proposal, but I’m not sure what the intent was behind that. Can you help me understand? Can you help me explain? So, if you can ask people open-ended questions about their behavior. If they have some level of self-awareness, they may self-reflect and say, ‘You know, I’m sorry I sent that to you redlined.’ We should have sat down. I should have talked you through why I made all these changes. And so that’s important that you have to have some sort of safety in the relationship where you feel like you can give feedback. Also, if you can go to the boss’s peer or another colleague, there might be other people in the organization who have worked with micromanaging media and might feel more comfortable saying something to her in a way that’s safe again, so that that doesn’t necessarily come back to you being viewed as complaining about your boss.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:08:11,230 ] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it all stems down from psychological safety, right? I mean, do we work in a place— in an environment where we can speak up? So yeah, I definitely agree with that. Do you believe that there’s a a specific bad boss archetype or is it a variety of, um, I mean, have you seen a specific mold, if you will, across industries? Have you noticed any patterns?
Mita Mallik
[ 00:08:39,240 ] Yeah, that’s a great question.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:08:41,990 ] The first thing I think about is— I think bad bosses can be made anywhere. You know, under and in any industry sector, all of these places. But here’s why I think it’s really interesting. I think that some are more prevalent, and I’ll tell you why. Let’s think of a— I’m not going to name a name, but a really hot tech company out there right now. Everybody wants a sweatshirt, and then all of a sudden— I just got a package from that. Oh, okay. Yay, there was one. Everyone wanted a sweatshirt. Everyone turned that sweatshirt out. No one wants to be seen with that logo on their chest or on a backpack. But what I will say is when there’s like a— There’s a scarcity mindset. There’s only so many roles on this team. Beauty used to be sort of famous for this. Now you can start your own beauty brand on Instagram. But think about the day there were only like five really big global beauty companies. I used to work for a number of them. And it’s like, oh, you don’t want to take this abuse. And if you don’t believe in how we’re leading here, then there’s 10 other people who will take it.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:09:42,520 ] Your job, so there’s that. There’s also this company. It is so mission driven, and this founder believes they’re changing the world. And so we will normalize lots of bad behavior because there’s a bigger mission than all of us. Right? And so, I think in those situations, you will see bad boss behavior is more prevalent and is normalized and is not kept in check.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:10:09,060 ] Hmm. And I’m assuming that this also touches on The culture, right? I mean, for example, it’s known that in the U. S., it’s a hustle culture. And maybe that tends to.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:10:21,960 ] Maybe breed more bad bosses, if that makes sense. Absolutely. I don’t know.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:10:26,330 ] Absolutely. I grew up and I’m still in many ways living in a time and a place where overworking is normalized. It’s celebrated, the hustle culture you talk about. And in the double emails at midnight, I have one of my former bosses, I nicknamed the white. Rabbit from Alice in Wonderland and you know she would be like, ‘Oh, I’m too busy to have lunch. I’m too busy to go to the bathroom. You’re like, that’s disgusting. What like it was? Yeah, yeah, badge of busyness and overwork. And I’m always available.’ And when you go back to the question of bad bosses and what makes a bad boss, people ask me this, like, what’s the common thread? It’s actually tied to what you just said about hustle culture. It’s really simple and very complicated. The common threat I see is people behaving badly when they don’t take care of themselves.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:11:12,990 ] If I don’t take care of myself, I can’t take care of you or my team or anyone else. I’m not sleeping. I’m not hydrated. I’m not eating well. I’m not resting. I’m not taking walks. Exercise, listen. You’re not monitoring me to see if I can do 90 minutes on the Peloton. Guess what? I can’t. But it is why I coach leaders. And I will say whatever label you want to use— top performer, high performer— that is the competitive edge.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:11:36,380 ] Anyone who is trying to compete in their career, building a business, whatever they are doing, they’re focused on their well-being, especially if you think about taking one thing away from this conversation that we’re having today— is that you have to really think about this in a race to embrace AI and embed AI. We are not AI agents, we are not bots, we are human. We have to lean into how we’re going to take care of ourselves so we can compete at work.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:12:04,250 ] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:12:07,170 ] And look, I was just thinking as you were talking, I started my career very, very early. I started working when I was 16. So I’ve had my fair share of managers and bosses and leaders, whatever you want to call them.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:12:21,350 ] I don’t remember until now. Having a good one. Um.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:12:29,180 ] Maybe there isn’t the perfect boss. Maybe, I mean, what everyone will consider their boss is to not be the boss they want, but something that.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:12:39,400 ] I take now that I manage people and I have a team, etc. I try to remember what I did not like about my bosses and sort of say, ‘Don’t be like that.’ In a way, what I’m saying is: ‘We can sometimes learn.’ What type of boss we don’t want to be by the examples that are given to us in life. Would you agree?
Mita Mallik
[ 00:13:00,630 ] And that’s why I wrote the book. Absolutely. All of the characters. And I think when I think about. What does good leadership look like? Right, exactly what you’re trying to role model it is being in coach mode. It’s teaching, it’s training, it’s having people’s back and giving them air cover when they make mistakes. Not kicking someone when they’re down—because that was stupid; they probably knew it was stupid. But I think the difference between a boss and a leader is this: leaders know that their number one job is to create more leaders. That’s what you’re to do. And you are not threatened by your team. You’re likely building teams where you know where your strength is and you have areas of opportunity. So you’re actually trying to attract talent who can then balance what you are leading and bringing to the team. And you are excited when your team is excelling because that reflects on you. And this is what I never understood about really insecure bosses is that if the team shines, you’re shining. You’re a talent magnet then. If I am building up my team and getting people promoted and helping them move on.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:14:04,670 ] I’m You don’t have to call recruiting. People are going to know about my reputation internally, externally. I’m going to have a really much easier time attracting talent because my reputation is known as a leader.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:14:15,370 ] Yeah, I totally agree.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:14:19,270 ] My boss, my current boss, Frank Cottle, which I don’t even call him a boss to me. He’s a mentor. I love that. I’m very grateful for him.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:14:29,720 ] He always tells me, ‘You gotta— you gotta.’
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:14:33,450 ] In a way, it sounds weird. I don’t know if this is considered an oxymoron, but in a way, you gotta make it so that your team can potentially replace you. Yeah, you got to make them. And I think that’s scary in a way. You’re thinking, what am I teaching people to replace me? But I think that’s how we should think as leaders, right? We need people to grow.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:14:54,400 ] And what’s your personal name, Frank?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:14:56,720 ] Frank Cottle, yes. He’s our executive publisher.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:14:58,940 ] And I hope there are more Franks out there. I know there are. But that strikes me as someone who’s very confident and secure.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:15:06,420 ] Yeah. Very happy with. In life, right? So he can show up that way to know. There’s no scarcity mindset. There’s enough. Right and also you know, good leaders know this as well. Succession planning is so important. That he’s actually, you know, you’ll have this amazing time together and Frank at some point will move on, if it’s not his company or whatever he tries to do, but that he wants you or someone else to actually be ready. To take over. That’s also something good leaders do. They’re constantly thinking about. Well, if I am moving on or someone’s moving on, how are we actually developing our talent to make sure, again, the needs of the business are met?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:15:45,640 ] Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I’m very grateful. Our entire team is very grateful for him. He really pushes us forward.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:15:53,790 ] Let’s talk a little about gratitude.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:15:58,330 ] You emphasize this in your book, Practicing Gratitude.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:16:03,660 ] Why is gratitude such a superpower? Or a resilience tool.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:16:08,840 ] Yeah, I’ll tell you, I’m very confused because I’m raising children right now.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:16:13,850 ] Please and thank you. Please and thank you, right? And then, as adults, we forget this. We enter the workplace. We’re so, at least I was, gratitude. Being polite manners— all these things you teach the little people in your life and then they grow up in the workplace and it’s like, ‘Well, no, this is just expected, so just get it done And it’s so underutilized. And I’m not saying if you’re underpaying someone, you shouldn’t be doing that, that a ‘please’ and a ‘thank you’ is going to make up. But I will tell you, behind me, I have two boxes full of handwritten notes, which are like a lost art form. Notes from bosses and colleagues and team members who wrote me things to say, ‘thank you so much for doing this.’ Thank you for being a good leader. Thank you. Like, wow. Right to have that and to hold on to on the rainy days or days I’m feeling sorry for myself, and some people have a ‘love notes’ folder right on email you can go and look through things that people sent you about moments where you really showed up for them. I think that. That builds loyalty and trust.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:17:13,230 ] In a way that is so underestimated. Because if I feel valued, seen, and recognized by you, I know I come to work. My contribution matters. My voice matters. I’m making impact.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:17:25,489 ] It’s hard to put a cost on that. So if someone else comes and says, ‘I’m going to offer you $20,000 for this other opportunity,’ okay, maybe I’d go for a hundred grand, but seriously, I’m going to think. Because what I have working for you, like when you’re describing Frank. What I have working for you. Oh gosh, I don’t know if I want to give that up. It’s not worth.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:17:49,430 ] My mental and physical health to maybe take that risk and go somewhere else. When I know how valued I am.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:17:57,800 ] Yeah, and it’s those little things that are most important that sometimes tend to go unnoticed, right? Yeah, absolutely. But they do make a difference. I try. I mean, I’m not the best at it, but I try. Like, I don’t know— little things after each meeting with a team or anything. They’re all supposed to be there, but I still say thank you for joining. Or like at the end of the week, thank you everyone for this week. And I really do feel it. It’s not like I’m a robot.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:18:24,630 ] Saying it when you feel it, when you say it, you can feel it.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:18:28,130 ] If it’s yes, um, yeah, and I mean, we’re all working together. We spend one third of our lives working together, sitting in front of the screens, just reminding ourselves that we’re grateful to be here, et cetera. I think, I think that does go a long way.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:18:44,040 ] What about boundaries? You also talk about boundaries in your book.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:18:50,200 ] Oh, and this, this, we could talk about.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:18:52,320 ] I don’t know, that’s a whole other. I think Yeah.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:18:55,510 ] Boundaries. Where do you start? Where do you start with boundaries? How can we, how do boundaries?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:19:04,270 ] exist here and what we’re talking about do employees need to set boundaries for bad bosses or How can we integrate this into the combo we’re having? What do you think?
Mita Mallik
[ 00:19:15,830 ] I keep going back to that famous quote, you teach people how to treat you. You really do. And so, boundaries are important. Now, you know, this is the extreme of it. That doesn’t mean I’m never taking a meeting. At 4pm on a Friday. Eastern. That’s not what we’re talking about. But it is, as I coach people, particularly someone who’s starting a new job, those first 90 days matter. You want to have wins. You want to show up and listen. But if you are constantly accessible at midnight or all hours, like an Uber app. You’re teaching people how to treat you. You’re teaching them that you have access to me at all hours. Now, don’t mistake for this. Of course, there’s drive periods and there are going to be moments. No one’s working nine to five. But it’s this idea of, like, you know, are you allowing people to rest and recover? You know, I’ve been the person who’s guilty. Emailing on vacation. That’s not vacation, right? You would say to me, someone is very close to me, like you’re not setting a good example because I’m checking a quick email. No, I don’t need to do that, right? Yeah. And so, guilty as well.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:20:17,730 ] So I’m teaching, there’s really no vacation. And I’m not saying if there’s like an emergency or something’s happened. But boundaries are important too. Here’s the thing that I always joke about and find fascinating. I’ve sold a lot of beauty products, food products, and SaaS software in my career. I have never been a 911 operator, a crisis counselor, emergency room professional, a firefighter, police officer. I have not done anything that’s life or death in my career. And thank God for the people who do. So what is it that I need to be constantly on call for? Like, what kind of culture have we created when you go back to hustle culture? Where are the boundaries? Because what is going to happen and what people don’t realize is that you are ultimately burning out your top talent. That’s what people are most concerned about. They want to be able to hold on to that top talent. If you don’t, as a boss, help them set boundaries as a leader. Or you don’t encourage them to do so, or you consistently test their boundaries, that is a recipe ultimately for burnout and also for them. You know, either you know exit by choice or not by choice— the company.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:21:21,820 ] It’s interesting because, yes.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:21:27,860 ] And aside from reading your book, is there a little quick check? Any boss can do.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:21:37,110 ] Right now, to sort of identify if they are a bad boss, what would What would be the best way for someone to take a pause?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:21:45,909 ] And identify if they are a bad boss or not.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:21:49,820 ] Is it simply asking their team?
Mita Mallik
[ 00:21:52,380 ] I’d go through do a few things. I’d go back through performance reviews you’ve had over the years. Go back and read what’s said and what’s not said. Really interesting. A lot of things that are unsaid are coded. What does that mean? Have you ignored that from the past? I would do this exercise. I would, at the 10 minutes on a Friday at the end of every week.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:22:12,390 ] Take a notebook or, if you use Notion or some other preferred app, and way of collecting data. Think about how the week went. I don’t want to talk about missed deadlines or a customer that you lost or gained. I want you to think about how the week went with the team. For example, if you went back through the memories of being in Rome on Zooms. What were the expressions? How are people reacting to what kind of questions were asked or no questions were asked? Do you walk into a room and see people walking the other way? That’s a problem, right? So think about that. And that is what I’m doing. There is I’m helping you try to develop self-awareness. Because you’re trying to, on your own, recall how the week felt. How did you feel about it? But how do you think others felt about you and how you showed up? And then it is about asking your team the final piece. But here’s how you’re going to do it. I used to have a boss who would say to me at the end of my review. Every year, so how do you think I’m doing? What feedback do you have for me?
Mita Mallik
[ 00:23:13,260 ] And the first time I channeled Bernie Brown, kind and kind is clear— he lost his mind. He literally lost his mind and he was like, ‘That’s not true. I can’t believe you would say that.’ That didn’t happen, and immediately, he was in defense mode. So the next time he asked me something, I was like, ‘All good. Thank you.’ I was never going to give him feedback again. So now, what I would do is, let’s say we’re meeting for coffee on Friday, and you work for me. And I say, ‘I’m really excited for coffee on Friday.’ I know we’re going to go over this client proposal. I also wanted to let you know I’m focused on my own career development. And here’s one area of opportunity I’ve identified for myself. I am holding on to things too long and not delegating fast enough for the team. And I need to be better about doing that and letting go of projects. I’d love to hear your coaching. On writing, thanks yeah here’s what I’ve done. I’ve done a few things. One, I’ve put it in writing so you have to respond and think about it, so I’m not putting you on the spot. Two, I haven’t left it open-ended. I’ve been vulnerable.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:24:14,180 ] I am telling you what I think I should work on. I’m so sick and tired of bosses who are like, ‘Tell me what you think I should be doing better.’ Why don’t you tell me, right? Let’s have an invitation. And then, depending on your culture, I use the word ‘coaching.’ Because ‘wow’ isn’t that interesting— that I’m asking my team member to coach me rather than feedback. Then, when you have that meeting, you’re either going to agree with what I said or disagree. But here’s the thing: if you say something that’s surprising, I’m going to sit there and say, ‘Thank you so much. I’m processing this.’ I really appreciate that you provided this feedback and I’m going to get back to you. So we’re not going to immediately dismiss or kill it or say, ‘I can’t believe you would say that.’ That’s not right. You’re going to thank the person, gratitude. And then you’ll come back with the next steps on what you’re going to do. But that’s what it looks like when you actually want the feedback. And here’s the thing I would say. If you’re not ready, don’t ask. And I really mean that. I work with too many leaders. We do engagement surveys. And then they’re like, ‘This is not true.’ Let’s survey the team again. Who wrote? That’s not true. And you’re like, ‘What is going on here?’
Mita Mallik
[ 00:25:15,740 ] So if you’re not in a mental place to receive feedback, then you need to wait.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:25:20,920 ] Yeah, don’t ask questions you don’t want the answers to, right? But in asking questions, we learn, I think. People always tell me that I ask too many questions. I don’t care. I’m not going to stop doing it because that’s how I learn. And I’m curious, you know? And what you were just saying.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:25:38,190 ] I actually tried something. I think it was last year. Someone within our team left. They did their own entrepreneur thing and they left.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:25:49,260 ] And we were at the office, you know, signing resignation and all that stuff. And I decided to try something that made me sort of scared.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:25:56,730 ] But it really helped me understand what type of leader I am. Once that person signed and okay, computer, everything. I literally just asked that person. You’re gone. I’m no longer your boss, whatever.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:13,370 ] What didn’t you like about me? What could I have done better?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:17,310 ] And are you leaving because of me? That person didn’t leave because of me. Other reasons.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:23,750 ] But I remember the things— two things. It was three, but the two that stayed with me were.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:29,870 ] Um, we don’t meet enough and sometimes we meet too much. You’re sort of disorganized with meetings. And to this day, I think I still am. I learned that about myself. And then the other thing that person said is. You don’t let things go. We start a project, we never really end it. You cling onto it. And we start another thing, and you’re always clinging, clinging, clinging. And it seems like we’re never ending things. And so I learned those, and those stuck with me. I wrote them down on a piece of paper. It’s back home.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:27:02,270 ] But now I know that that’s something I do, and I should work on. And it was just by asking someone, you know?
Mita Mallik
[ 00:27:06,950 ] That’s a gift too. You don’t have to keep it like a gift. You can recycle it, throw it out, but it’s a gift. Someone gave it to you, and then you decide what to do about it. And I love that. Still thinking about it and what I love that you role modeled is I. I’m like, our exit interviews cancel. They shouldn’t be. I mean, what a moment and an opportunity when someone leaves to get out the good, bad and the ugly and even the great. And I worked in a public company once where I actually went back six months after people had left. Because in a big public company, legal can be very worried about this stuff. And general counsel is like, I think it’s a great idea. So can you imagine we reached out to employees six months after they left? And then I always say facts versus feelings. The feelings are for my journal, which you’ve seen a lot of them in my book. But the facts, right? So then, like, people have had time to process how they might feel about leaving. But then they’re going to stick to the facts. We got so much incredible insight and data from doing that piece of work that you could give someone time to go on to their next chapter and then say, ‘Tell me what you really thought.’
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:28:09,490 ] Yeah. Here. Yeah, definitely. Um.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:28:12,960 ] So look. I think currently, we’re in a political environment. I think, in a way, I think everyone feels like the world is going down the toilet in some ways.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:28:23,080 ] It’s saying it’s either the world’s on fire or frozen. Yeah. I’m sitting in the frozen part of the world, but yeah.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:28:29,440 ] And I mean, I think.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:28:31,630 ] Everyone’s just kind of freaking out. I believe my team says it, and I say it: Sir? With this, with AI, and hybrid work, and burnout, and political things, do you think that The era of bad bosses is going to get worse?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:28:48,960 ] Because of this, that we’re living, yes— are we going to see a shift? Hey.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:28:54,760 ] What do you think? Will we see more bad bosses or will it be the other way around, because of what we’re going through?
Mita Mallik
[ 00:29:00,820 ] I actually love that question. I think there’s a potential to see more bad bosses. And I think there’s the potential to see many more good leaders. Let’s start with the bad bosses. The thing that’s really interesting, that you just brought up about what you’re feeling and your team’s feeling, we’re all feeling a loss of control. Yes. There’s a massive loss of control, personally and professionally. And so what happens when you feel a loss of control? You’re trying to find some semblance of control. The easiest way for me to do that is to go micromanage. Go and exert some power on people who report to me. And so what we’re seeing very interestingly is back to sort of the pandemic days. I’ve been guilty as charged a helicopter parent. I’ve been a helicopter manager, but it’s back to. Oh my god, what is happening in the world? Everything seems heightened. It is loss of life, so many people are hurting. I gotta control something. I’m gonna ask my team where that proposal is. Even though I gave them a deadline of next week, I’m going to ask to join meetings. I’m going to be on Slack, I’m going to be copied right.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:30:01,170 ] I can go on and on. So there’s that, or there’s this idea of, like— I keep saying to people, ‘be a light for someone else.’ Just be a positive light. Do what you can. You can only impact the people who are in your surroundings. I don’t. I’m in the US. I don’t write executive orders. I don’t make you know. I don’t make all decisions. I’m just me. But what can I do for my neighbors, for my family, for my friends? How can I be reaching out to people who might need a cup of coffee? Might be really appreciative if I dropped off dinner or did groceries or all these small things. Or checking in on our teams, like, listen. We can agree to disagree on policies, but not when it comes to humanity. Right. Not when it comes to being human. And that we always have to show up and do for each other. So that’s my biggest piece of advice. I keep trying to also ground myself in is be the light for someone else. You don’t have to. Otherwise, it seems really overwhelming because we can’t control all of these things. But be the light for someone else.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:31:01,110 ] Be the light for someone else. I love that.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:31:03,770 ] We’re nearing the end of our conversation. I got two more questions for you. Um, What is one?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:31:12,870 ] What is one mindset shift you hope leaders take or achieve after reading the devil emails at midnight? What is that one thing you hope? That someone takes away from your book.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:31:26,970 ] That’s a great question. I want everyone to think about that one behavior you cling to. When things get stressful. For me, we just talked about it. I’m sorry if you worked for me years ago, micromanaging me to probably I’m in your notebook, right? Sort of, you know, this tendency to want to control. Things and want to get into the level of details. Listen, I often demanded excellence, but I didn’t coach excellence. There’s the difference. So it can be holding people accountable. So how do I swing? And so for some people, disengagement, some people might be disengagement. Some people, when they’re stressed, they might pull away from their teams and start to macro manage. They may disappear. Other people might be spouting toxic positivity. We can do this. It doesn’t kill you. It makes you stronger. So that’s what I want people to think about. is what is your go-to behavior in moments of stress? Because that can either be harnessed to make you a better leader or it can make you a bad boss.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:32:23,460 ] Hmm. I will actually think on that one as well. For myself.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:32:29,110 ] And finally, if you could.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:32:31,490 ] If you could give one message to someone currently working for a bad boss, what would it be?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:32:36,690 ] Just as a closing argument, most people that leave a company that they love. Leave it because of a boss. I think it’s 52% that Gallup said. 52% of the reasons are because of a bad boss. I could love working for this company, but it’s the boss, right?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:32:52,850 ] What would you say to someone that’s working for a bad boss? What would be your advice?
Mita Mallik
[ 00:32:57,560 ] So my advice goes to the dedication of the book, which is to my children who are young. They’re not in the workforce yet. But I did at one point in the dedication, it says, when you come to tell me and your father about your bad boss, I’m going to hand you this book. Because, as a friend, mother, sister, partner, coach, all of those things, leader, I’m not going to recommend that you resign every time you have a bad loss. Context and situation matter. If you are working for micromanaging media and it’s a really difficult moment in your career. Listen, a bad boss for me could be a good boss for you. That’s also really interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That matters. But let’s say you’re working for me. Ah, this sucks. Okay, here’s what I want you to do. Want you to pull up your resume. I want you to actually do a vision— future forward— piece of work, which is write your resume now, that part of the year that you will have worked for me. Isn’t that interesting? So let’s pretend we’re in 2027 and you worked for me the entire year. I want you to write down right now. What you will have gained working for me— so harness that energy and anxiety of working for a bad boss— to say, ‘I’m putting an expiration date. I’m going to work for her for a year, but I’m actually going to write down what I get out of this.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:34:01,150 ] On the flip side, if you are working for the Medusa Sheriff Tony Soprano, any of the characters in my book, your mental health matters and only you can decide how long you’re going to put up with it, because you also don’t want to be in a place where you lose pieces of yourself every week. And a year later, you’re looking in the mirror and you’ve disappeared. And so only you can make that determination. And when you do, it’s not that you resign tomorrow. Not many of us have that luxury to do that, but you start to plan— i say, the ‘get out’ plan, make it work, the plan every day, and then you’ll move on to what you’re meant to do next.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:34:36,510 ] That’s amazing. That’s amazing advice, Mira. Thank you so much for taking the time to meet with me. I really enjoyed our conversation. I highly recommend that our listeners get the book. We will include the links in the transcript and within our episode so that people can get it.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:34:53,850 ] And I hope we get to do this soon again.
Mita Mallik
[ 00:34:57,830 ] Potentially, we will see how the year for the middle or end of the year is. I’m sure there’s more hot topics. I so appreciate you having me on your show. Thank you.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:35:08,240 ] Likewise. Thank you so much. And I hope I get to talk to you soon.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:35:12,120 ] Ciao.
SPEAKER_2
[ 00:35:13,540 ] If it’s impacting the future of work, it’s in the future of work podcast by all work dot space.
