Andrew Seamen of LinkedIn |Exploring the Post-Pandemic Labor Market with LinkedIn’s Senior News Editor

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Companies are back to hiring, but worker are more inclined than ever to search for new opportunities. LinkedIn’s News Senior Editor; Andrew Seaman talks about how the pandemic impacted the skills gaps, hiring practices, and talent retention strategies.

GUEST

Andrew Seaman

Senior News Editor LinkedIn

Transcript

We saw in the latest LinkedIn workforce report that there is a nine percent bump over pre pandemic levels, so that means that people are getting hired, but it also means that they’re moving around quite a bit. And what we’re finding is that people, like you said, are more comfortable sort of moving around and saying, hey, I want to maybe look for something new. Maybe they have a new mission in life. They want to try something new. They’ve always had that sort of burning desire to go into a new field or they’re sort of reaching out and saying, I can take a step up from where I am. So there’s a lot of reasons that people are moving around. And obviously companies are paying attention to that because we’re seeing companies offer some new incentives. We’re seeing companies offer things to attract workers. So there’s a whole lot going on. And it’s not just unique to the United States. I think we’re hearing a lot of the United States, because..  

Ceci Amador [00:01:11] Hi, and welcome to the Future of Work podcast by Allwork.Space I’m Ceci Amador de San Jose and today I’m looking forward to chatting with Andrew Seaman about the skills gap, the skills shortage and how companies are responding to these challenges. Andrew is senior news editor for Job Searches and Careers at LinkedIn News. He’s also the editor of the Get Hired And Get Ahead newsletters and the host of Get Hired Live. Andrew, welcome.  

Andrew Seaman [00:01:38] Thanks so much for having me, Ceci.  

Ceci Amador [00:01:40] I have been looking forward to this conversation for a long time. I’m not going to lie. And I think because this is a topic that has been kind of like trending for the past couple of years and then the pandemic hit and everyone was like I’m staying in my job. I know LinkedIn called it sheltering in job, but then people are now more comfortable moving around. And I don’t know. I want to ask you, what are some of the hiring trends that you’re looking at right now? I know that LinkedIn latest workforce report found that in the US, national hiring was nine percent above pandemic levels in June, which is great news, I think. But then at the same time, I’ve seen like on social media, Twitter, people saying that there are no jobs or great jobs. What are company facing? What’s the overall feeling about hiring right now?  

Andrew Seaman [00:02:36] Yeah, of course. And of course, thank you for having me. And I always love having these conversations. And like you said, so we saw in the latest LinkedIn workforce report that there’s a nine percent bump over pre pandemic levels. So that means that people are getting hired, but it also means that they’re moving around quite a bit. And what we’re finding is that people, like you said, are more comfortable sort of moving around and saying, hey, I want to maybe look for something new. Maybe they have a new mission in life. They want to try something new. They’ve always had that sort of burning desire to go into a new field or they’re sort of reaching out and saying, I can take a step up from where I am. So there’s a lot of reasons that people are moving around. And obviously companies are paying attention to that because we’re seeing companies offer some new incentives. We’re seeing companies offer things to attract workers. So there’s a whole lot going on. And it’s not just unique to the United States. I think we’re hearing a lot of the United States because the vaccine rollout has been quick here. Obviously, there’s a lot of stuff that’s still moving around because of the Delta variant and even vaccine uptake.  

Andrew Seaman [00:03:48] But what we’re seeing globally is that Microsoft, they did a survey and ending with thirty one thousand global workers and forty one percent said that they had planned to maybe leave their current employer by the end of the year. So that’s not enough. Yeah. So that’s not a definite but they’re definitely considering it. And I think that shows us that there’s quite a few people who are saying, you know, I might be able to move around because I think during the pandemic, a lot of people, they were forced out of jobs. But if they weren’t, like you said, we use the term sheltering and job, which means that they sort of hang around and say, OK, I’m not going to get laid off and I don’t want to quit because things might not be safe out there for me to get a new job and I might take a lower salary if I do so. Now, as things open up, they’re sort of saying, oh, I have a brighter future, there’s better opportunities out there. Let me see what’s there.  

Ceci Amador [00:04:43] Based on what you’re saying, companies are taking notice of this and they’re offering you incentives to attract talent. And I’m assuming they’re also implementing new policies to retain talent. What are some of the new incentives that that you’ve observed?  

Andrew Seaman [00:04:58] The biggest thing is flexible work policies. So I know I’ve done some polls on my LinkedIn profile and there’s obviously been a ton of other research out there. And basically the number one thing people say they want our flexible work policies. So that doesn’t mean that they want to only work from home or only want to work in the office. They just want the option to have the choice and maybe they want to move somewhere else in the country. I know I heard from a lot of people who want to move closer to their families, and sometimes that means that they need to work in a different state than most of their coworkers. So a lot of companies, they are realizing that this is what they’re going to have to offer. And I’m hearing from recruiters and benefits managers that that is going to be really a bargaining chip.  

Andrew Seaman [00:05:45] So it’s not just that people are going to say, hey, do you want to have the option to work two days or three days a week from home? It’s going to be do you want to move to Montana? Do you want to move to a new country, something like that, maybe from New York City or some of these other places. So I think there’s a realization that that’s going to have to be offered. And obviously, that is a dependent part, because you can’t necessarily be a hospital worker and work remotely and you can’t do some jobs remotely. And then there is going to be a lot on well-being because I think there’s still a lot of trauma left over from the heart of the pandemic. And in a lot of places, the pandemic will worsen probably in the coming months. So there is still a lot of unease among people. There’s a lot of anxiety and companies, I think they recognize that. And during the pandemic, we saw more and more of them offering psychological help, help with stress and things like that.  

Ceci Amador [00:06:52] Yeah, I totally agree. I’ve been focusing a lot on wellness recently, writing, and it’s surprising how much increase in stress, burnout, depression. I mean, and covid had a really big toll, and not just on our professional lives, but personal lives. I mean, people were either isolated, alone or stuck at home with everyone, and that can create a lot of stress. So I think it’s great that companies are taking notice of this and they like that. I feel like employees have a lot of the leverage right now compared to, I mean, pre pandemic and in other areas where the employers were the ones that held most of the power.  

Ceci Amador [00:07:33] And I feel like people are realizing that they can. I mean, if we all gather together and join forces, we can actually ask companies to provide what we need from them to actually perform our best. And one of the reasons I think that employees now hold the leverage is because there’s been a lot of talk around a skills shortage and the numbers are outstanding. And I wanted to ask you, do you think the skills shortage actually exists? Are you seeing companies are having a hard time filling in certain positions? And is that impacting the way they attract, they hire and the incentives they offer to get employees to stay with them?  

Andrew Seaman [00:08:12] Definitely. So I think what we saw over the pandemic, at least on LinkedIn side, is that there were people who they were wanting to quickly skill up. So when they were laid off, they realized that to survive in their field or to maybe go into the field that they want, they really had to work on their skills. So I always like to tell people their baskets of skills. So even if you worked like I’m trained in traditional journalism and worked in traditional newsrooms, but I came to tech and there are some things that I had to learn. There are some things that I have to grow in. And I think a lot of people during the pandemic realize that, too. And I heard from a lot of people who said, hey, listen, I’ve been in my field for 15, 20 years and things have changed. And because of their job, they were allowed to sort of not grow as much because they were in a job for a long time. They would level up a little bit, but they didn’t have to learn necessarily the new technology or all the new stuff because they had other coworkers that could do that. So they found to be competitive, they had to learn.  

Andrew Seaman [00:09:16] So there’s definitely a skills gap. And I think what we also found is that there were always going to be skill gaps, but the pandemic exacerbated that. So there was always a need for nurses and health care and things like that and then in technology. So one of the things that I think we saw during the pandemic was there was already a need for people in the technology space. But then you had all these people working remotely, which was putting a strain on systems, and there needed to be new solutions for online learning and to have meetings and conversations like that. And then all takes talent and special talent. So that demand grew really quickly and we’re seeing companies sort of meet that demand.  

Andrew Seaman [00:09:59] So there’s a lot of companies that offer special trainings for people. I know Amazon, they’re offering some sort of program for people who want to maybe maybe they’re in the warehouse right now, but they want to transfer to tech or maybe they want to go into engineering or something like that. And then there are other companies. I know Cisco has sort of certification program. Google has one. Amazon also has a certification program that you could do. So there are a lot of companies that are basically saying, hey, we need to step up here, otherwise we’re going to have a hard time finally finding talent. And they are. And Amazon, they’re also doing this really interesting thing where basically they’re letting engineers and software engineers do a basic interview process. So do the interview process that they’ve always had had done. But at the end of it, they kind of pick their own job. So they get a selection of jobs to choose from. And the hiring managers basically have to pitch them and say, hey, you should join my team because of X, Y and Z. And then the engineers basically say, I want to go to that place, not not the other job. So there’s a basically there are some industries, there’s some skills that people are just throwing incentives at them to get them. So we are going to see that grow because obviously takes time to skill people  

Ceci Amador [00:11:15] So not only does it take time to skill people, Andrew, but I think that changes are happening, happening so rapidly right now, it can be a little bit overwhelming. I know on the marketing side of things like I got a certification that a couple of years ago and I was like, yes, I know this. And then not like six months later, Google changed their algorithms and everything was different and like, I need to stay on top of this. And then on top of all the work. So I think it’s great that companies are starting to realize that they need to provide the learning and reskilling opportunities. And more importantly, I think that they need to allow employees to take those courses during their work time. I mean, people have a lot going on outside of work. And if we expect people to up skill themselves, I feel like it’s not going to happen as quickly as we need it to.  

Ceci Amador [00:12:08] And I know the pandemic was maybe a different scenario because people I mean, people couldn’t go to the gym, to the spa to eat at restaurants. So we had a lot of time on their hands. So a lot of people turned that turn to I mean, I might as well just make the best of it and study and register on courses and get certifications. But as we go back into I mean, and I hate saying back to normal, I think there is no going back to normal people, head back to the office and things return to kind of like a more normal pace of business. I think that’s going to change. And I think that companies really do need to prioritize reskilling and upskilling opportunities within their organizations during work time and like facilitating making it easy for people to access the right resources and tools that they need to do this.  

Andrew Seaman [00:12:54] Yeah, and I think we will see more of that because I think they see value in retaining existing workers. There are there’s going to have to be a choice made at employers who maybe their employee says, hey, I think I can go to a competitor and get a job there. And then they get that offer. They come back. So employers will have to make the choice of are they going to keep these workers? Are they going to retain them if they do retain them or are they going to offer them more skills? So maybe a chance to grow. And I’ve heard from a few people who say they do want that. They want that career development. So it goes beyond just the opportunity to be at a job and hold that job. They want to be able to grow in it. And I think there’s increasing recognition because of the pandemic and because of the position people found themselves in, that they want to have that ability to sort of keep up during their jobs. So I think you’re right that people are going to want to sort of break that into their positions.  

Ceci Amador [00:14:00] And then so that’s on the skills side of things, that there are some missing skills. There are some gaps that currently exist. But I read one of LinkedIn’s reports that sometimes it’s more of a signaling issue, that people do have the skills, but they’re not necessarily listing them or effectively communicating that they have those skills. Do you think that is still an issue?  

Andrew Seaman [00:14:23] Yeah, I think so. I think a lot of people there, it’s difficult for them to judge what they’re good at. So one good thing, and I think that’s just sort of the case, it’s hard to be a judge of your own skill. I know a lot of people, they like to say I’m focused on excellence, be be great and things like that. But it’s really difficult for people to say, am I good at this? Am I good at that? And I think we look for affirmation when we are trying to decide that. So if someone says, hey, you’re really good at math and other people say that maybe you are good at math, so maybe that shows that that is the skill you have, or maybe you’re really good at conflict resolution among friends and you are really good at sort of sorting things out. And I think we within our friend group or people we’ve encountered over the years, we know that some people have these abilities and say, hey, you’re really good at that or really good at this, but is not necessarily something that person would say, hey, this is my skill or I have this.  

Andrew Seaman [00:15:23] So I think there are a lot of people who, you know, they do have that that issue where they don’t know what they are actually good at. So there are a lot of good there are a lot of good test out there that you could do to take skills skill test to see if you are good at certain things they might be hit or miss or whether they’re actually useful to a person. But they do exist. And I think a lot of times just having a conversation with someone to say, hey, what are my strengths or what am I good at? What do you think I can improve at and go to people that you think will be fair, obviously. But I think that could help you grow a lot. And even during the pandemic, when people said, I don’t know what kind of courses to take online during. My job search or what will be most useful to me, it really comes down to just having those conversations and saying, what am I good at? What do I need work on or what do I have to do to get to the next level in my career? And hopefully people sort of I’m hoping that people took the pandemic to have that learning experience to say, like, OK, this is how I do this. This is how I navigate my career and this is how I grow. And I’m hopeful that that’s the case because we are seeing so much movement in the labor market and where people are going that I think you can only do that if you’re more sure footed.  

Ceci Amador [00:16:44] I agree. And speaking about a lot of movement in the labor market, are there any specific roles or skills that you have noticed that companies are having the hardest time finding the right talent for?  

Andrew Seaman [00:16:58] Yes. So I think there are a few that, like I said, they were they were there were shortages before the pandemic and the pandemic exacerbates them. So health care and tech are going to be up on that list. Just automatically. Something that popped up that wasn’t surprising on one of our list was financial consultants, analysts and people who work in finance. But it actually makes sense because what you find is that people there in sort of precarious financial situations, a lot of people drain their savings to withstand and weather the pandemic. So if they were out of work, maybe they had a few months of savings built up and they had to go through that. So I think between last year and this year, we saw almost two hundred fifty percent increase in demand for financial advisors. And so these are people who they might be counseling someone for a loan. They might be helping someone sort some stuff out financially. So it does make intuitive sense that that would be the case. We obviously saw a huge increase in retail sales needs because I think everyone saw the death of retail at the start of the pandemic and during the pandemic.  

Andrew Seaman [00:18:08] But people still need to buy things and people need to buy things online. So we also saw a big jump in e-commerce, retail and just e-commerce overall because you still need people to get things. So that was also a big increase. And then we saw people who were doing product design because we saw a lot of companies who had to move online very quickly. So maybe they didn’t have a good app in place, maybe they didn’t have a good online presence. So they need someone to sort of translate their business online. So that’s another tech role that we saw really grow. And then we also saw people in sales who they are being sort of brought back to get businesses up to speed or as businesses sort of get their wheels turning again. You need people to get those goods out there. So really across the spectrum of skill and professions and industries, we’re seeing things that are in demand and things that and professions that people may say, oh, that’s probably not a big demand right now. And I think obviously in the United States, at least, people who work in the service sector, so restaurants, bars, hotels, places like that are sort of throwing money at people saying, hey, please come work here, we’ll give you a five hundred dollar signing bonus. We just need workers. And I’ve seen a few restaurants that actually closed down a few days a week now because they don’t have the workers to do a seven day opening. So there’s a lot of jobs out there. And I’m I’m sort of surprised how quickly things bounce back.  

Ceci Amador [00:19:49] Yeah, but speaking about and you mentioned the service industry, why do you think restaurants are having a harder time finding workers?  

Andrew Seaman [00:19:59] I think there is data to show that pay is increasing in the service industry, but it’s not necessarily keeping up with people’s demand. So there were there was that movement. There was that idea that, hey, I don’t want to necessarily work in customer service anymore. I don’t want to work in a restaurant. I don’t want to work at a bar. And they’re hard jobs. And these are people who don’t get paid much and they are dealing with customers. They’re dealing with customer complaints. And it’s just it’s a hard job. Like I used to work at a retail store a long time ago and the I enjoyed it. But the memories that stick out are the problematic customers or the customers that would sort of be relentless and complaining about something you had no control over. So it’s a difficult job. And people say, if I’m going to do that, it needs to be worth my while. So I think there’s a lot of people who say I would rather go into sales in an office or maybe human resources if they have really good people skills.  

Andrew Seaman [00:21:04] We’re seeing some movement in those directions and the pay can be a little bit. It may not be as taxing, you don’t have to keep running around, you could just be at a desk in some cases or you could even work from home. So I think it’s that pay hasn’t met the willingness of people to return to those jobs. So basically, as people that say they want a better work life balance, they want a better work environment. So until we see sort of wages or pay for people in the service industry increase, I think there will probably be struggle in those areas or they may turn to younger workers to fill those roles. So I think it’s there’s also been some data to show it’s a really good year for young workers and getting their summer jobs.  

Ceci Amador [00:21:56] I mean, especially so not only to pay back, but I think if you add to the pandemic to all of this, I mean, these are customer facing positions where you have to interact with a lot of people on a regular basis. And I mean, I feel like, well, there are definitely some people that are fully comfortable now going out and going on about their lives as if the pandemic is fully over. I feel like there’s still a significant percent of people that are somewhat anxious, especially now with the Delta variant, kind of like ramping up. So I agree that the pay will definitely need to to increase or they will have to figure some other creative way to to attract service workers.  

Yeah, you were talking about a lot of people shifting from service to sales, H.R.. What are some of the skills there that overlap? I know there’s been a lot of talk about soft skills being super important in the future, and I think the pandemic with remote teams that came to show that soft skills really need to be honed in for remote and distributed teams to collaborate effectively. So what are some of the skills there that you think are kind of like people and companies are looking for the most right now?  

Andrew Seaman [00:23:09] Definitely. So soft skills are always going to be in demand, even as there’s always the concern that robots are going to take jobs. And a good example of this is if you go to a supermarket and they have the automated checkout where you go and you scan your own items, you always have that person there who has to jump in to help you or to sort of troubleshoot issues. And then the other day I went to a networking event. It was my first networking event since the pandemic began. And I was up on a rooftop at a hotel. And the hotel was sort of a budget hotel. So everyone had to check themselves in if you were a guest. And when I noticed that there were still two people in the lobby who were helping people work the computers. And I think that’s an example of why soft skills shine is because even if you have the technology where people can check themselves in, that will work for some people, but some people, they’re going to run into issues. Maybe the screen doesn’t work the touch screen, maybe their reservation won’t get pulled up or something. So you need someone who has those soft skills. And for people who maybe don’t know what those are, the soft skills are things that are human, innate or innately human where you can’t really learn it. It’s something where maybe you’re a good communicator, you can improve those skills, but it’s not something where you have to sit down and learn a math equation or you don’t have to learn to code or you don’t have to learn how to do a specific process.  

Andrew Seaman [00:24:35] So even if you’re cooking in the kitchen, it takes a certain skill to cook an egg. And that would be a hard skill because you have to learn that. But a soft skill is something where you can sort of manage the kitchen. That is sort of the difference between soft and hard skills. So soft skills are always going to be in demand, even if we have sort of the robots taking over. And I think communication and sales, interpersonal communication, that’s why we’re seeing people who maybe work in service industries and restaurants and bars move into those positions because they can relate to people. They can talk to people about their troubles or they can listen empathetically. And that’s all very important there. And then when it comes to sort of hard skills, we’re always looking for as a workforce, like I said, software engineers or looking for people who can work in health care environments. So those are hard skills. If there is coding involved, if there is nursing things like that, those take special training. Project management is always a big one. But then there’s also people when it comes to logistics and operations, you need drivers. You need people who are getting goods from e commerce sites to homes. And there’s this big push and the e commerce space called the last mile. And basically that is when you order something online, it’s very easy for companies to get something from a warehouse to a regional hub. But how do you get it from a regional hub to someone’s house? And that’s where it takes really a lot of person power to do that. You either need a robot to fly out there by drone, which isn’t there yet, or you need someone to put it on a truck and drive it there. And so you need someone who has the skill to do that, who can sort of work with the technology to tell them where to go.  

Andrew Seaman [00:26:30] So we’re seeing everything from things that are highly skilled in terms of needing a degree or special certification to say I’m a software developer to everything from a front line customer associate who needs that interpersonal soft skills to someone who can maybe have who’s good at driving. So if there’s a broad spectrum of what skills are actually needed and then obviously health care, so so there’s a there’s a there’s a lot of opportunity there and a lot of skills in demand.  

Ceci Amador [00:27:02] And then are you seeing companies now are hiring more for skill or for culture fit? I know this has been a big debate over time, whether you hire someone for their skills only, whether there are good culture fit. And I know that for teams, it’s increasingly important for someone to fit with that company’s culture. But then if you add the skill shortage to this, how how do companies balance this? Are you seeing them leaning towards more culture, more skills? What do you think?  

Andrew Seaman [00:27:31] I think it depends on the position. So I haven’t seen any hard evidence of any movement in one direction or the other. I would say for certain positions where a company has to hire in mass. They’re going to spend a lot of time looking for fit in some cases, we saw companies that was sort of like apply today, start today, especially in the service industry for customer service and things like that. So they’re not necessarily going to be looking like, do you get along with people? We’re going to have a bunch of interviews with you just to make sure that you get along with your coworkers. That’s not really in the cards for those positions. It may be a factor later on, but I think you’ll see that more for positions where there’s more recruitment involved, where there is more emphasis and you’re going to be talking to more people. But even there is probably going to be less of an issue if you are going to be working from home most of the time. And also, I think there’s been an increasing realization that that could be problematic to hire for fit. So it’s fine to take culture into consideration when hiring, but it can sort of exacerbate existing gaps in diversity, it can often hinder people who are neuro, neuro diverse in getting hired and things like that. So I think companies are becoming more cognizant of the fact that they don’t that culture is part of the equation, but it’s not as big a part of the equation as they thought it would be.  

Ceci Amador [00:29:07] We’re almost running out of time here. So before we leave, I wanted to ask you, what are some tips that job searchers can implement to improve their chances of getting hired? And then on the other side? What are some things companies can do to make sure that they are doing the right talent and attracting them enough to for them to say, hey, OK, I’m going to stay with you. I’m going to go with you.  

Andrew Seaman [00:29:31] Yeah, well, I think the first thing for job seekers is to I always tell them, take a pause. So I think there’s there’s obviously this idea when you’re a job seeker, especially if you’re laid off or you find yourself job seeking without notice. So this isn’t something that you’ve chosen yourself where you just have to get out there and start applying. And really what that means is that if you do that, you really most people, they don’t have their resume ready. They don’t have cover letters ready, and they just start sending out mass. And the return rate on doing that is usually much smaller than if you do a more thoughtful approach to job seeking. So I always suggest people take a pause and get their materials ready. So do your resume and your cover letters and then really have a targeted job search. So say this is what I want to do, because if you are going after a job that’s more high level than what you were doing or if you’re looking to take a step up in your career, it doesn’t sound good from an employer side. If you’re just sort of like, I want a job instead of I want this job, you need to explain why you want this job. And they want to know that you’re part of the team and you’re going to help them accomplish their company’s mission and also solve their problems. So take that pause. Figure out what you want to do, where you want to work and get your materials ready. So with your resume, you don’t have to focus too much on the format or the style or anything like that. Even a basic resume is good. Just make sure you have the content on there because flashy graphics and colors are not going to get you hired. It’s what you’ve done and it’s how you sort of present it to them in terms of this is the information you need to know that I’m the right person for you. So that’s really what the resume and then I’ll always be connecting. So whether you’re a job seeker or you’re not actively looking right now, I’ll just be trying to grow your professional relationships or just touch base with people that you’ve come into contact with over the years, maybe high school classmates or college classmates, they’re a great place to start, or maybe old coworkers just touch and touch base with them every once in a while. And then during your search, make sure that you’re being realistic about what you want and also how long it’s going to take. New jobs don’t typically happen overnight. And also be realistic that you’re not necessarily going to land the perfect job. Every job has its ups and downs. That’s why when I think about job seekers, I think we like to think of job seekers as this big group that’s collectively out there. But one day I could be a job seeker. I could just be like, I don’t like my job anymore. I want to be a job seeker. I love my job, though. If all my bosses are listening. But one person could just say, one day, I want to move on. And there are suddenly a job seeker and the next thing they’re not because they love their job again. So be realistic about what what job you want, what it’s going to be like. Study for the companies before you do the interviews, know the culture, know maybe some of the pluses and minuses of working there. Talk to employees who are there. Make sure that you’re doing a Google search on yourself to make sure that your LinkedIn is up to par, that wherever you have maybe an online profile or you discover all that, it’s the story you want to tell employers. I think a lot of people don’t realize that they need to do that and also know your audience. So if you are applying to a stuffy law firm, don’t try and do wacky cover letters or something like that if you don’t think it’s going to fly there and just sort of make sure you’re you’re telling the story you want and also that you’re telling it in the way that will be receptive to the person on the other side.  

Andrew Seaman [00:33:19] For recruiter tips. I think I think it’s really important to be empathetic to people because we often see that there’s the idea of ghosting where you don’t hear from the person that happens on both sides. So either the candidate all of a sudden they don’t hear from the recruiter or hiring manager and then all of a sudden the recruiter or hiring manager will complain because they were stood up for an interview or they never heard back from someone they offered a position to. And that really goes for job seekers to just be empathetic, have grace. You never know what the other side’s going through. Also, make sure you’re tracking what you’re doing. So make sure you’re keeping diversity in mind, because I think that is always top of mind at the beginning of a search that they want diverse candidates. But make sure you’re actually following through with that on the other side. So make sure you’re you’re keeping track of all those metrics, because it’s not just enough to have a diverse slate of candidates. You actually have to be hiring that to make sure you’re you’re changing the makeup of an organization, and that is reflective of your customers or the people you serve and then also make sure that the people you hire have the ability to move up, because I think there are some companies where you have people who just recruit for for certain levels. So you recruit for mid-level managers, low level managers, just rank and file workers, and then the C suite. But people internally don’t move up. And I think that’s something that companies are going to have to focus on if they want to attract people, because like we said, people want to grow in their careers, so they need to see a path for themselves.  

Ceci Amador [00:35:06] I agree. I read a book called The Inside Gig a while ago and it was great. And it was basically telling companies, you have no idea of the top talent you have within your talent if you’re not giving them all of these opportunities to move up or move horizontally within the organization.  

Andrew Seaman [00:35:24] Yes! 

Ceci Amador [00:35:26] Andrew it was great having you. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in to the future of our podcast by Allwork.Space. Remember that you can tune in on Apple podcast, Google podcast, Spotify or YouTube. New episodes are released every Thursday. Thank you.