Cheryl is a collaborative, approachable, and innovative thought-partner with expertise in driving HR programs and initiatives to support the strategic objectives of organizations. She has successfully lead diverse teams through organizational change and complex transformations while maintaining a positive and inclusive environment. Cheryl is a trusted advisor who quickly builds strong partnerships with stakeholders to deliver quality results.
About this episode
What you’ll learn
- What is a Chief People Officer?
- What is the cornerstone of a good company culture?
- Why is communication key in times of change?
- How (and why) creating a culture of diversity in companies matters.
- How to manage a hybrid company.
Jo Meunier [00:00:17] Hello. Welcome to the Future of Work podcast from Allwork.Space. I’m Jo Meunier and today I am looking forward to speaking with Cheryl Sinclair, the Chief People Officer at Buckle, who has over two decades of experience as a leader in nature and people management. Buckle is a remote first company and a provider of insurance and financial services to flexible gig economy workers, which, compared to the traditional insurance sector, is comparatively fairly new but a growing segment of the workforce. So, I’m really looking forward to hearing Cheryl’s experiences of people management in different industries and how she feels the future of work is shaping up. So welcome, Cheryl, and thank you for joining us today.
Cheryl Sinclair [00:00:53] Hi, Jo. I’m so happy to be with you here today.
Jo Meunier [00:00:56] Right. Well, let’s jump straight in. But firstly, I’d love it if you could give us a little bit about you and your back story. Tell us about your career to date and your work at Buckle.
Cheryl Sinclair [00:01:07] Absolutely. And it’s been interesting when you’re mentioned to decades of experience, I’m thinking, oh, my gosh, has it been the case? But it’s been an amazing two decades that I’m so thankful and proud to have been able to experience the last 20 plus years. So currently I am the Chief People Officer at Buckle and I’ve been in this job since June of 2021. So, I just made the one-year anniversary and I’m so thrilled to be a part of this team. But part of that is very interesting. Jo I never thought I would be in human resources when I graduated from high school. I wanted to be a dancer. So yeah, this is quite interesting. And my father being the practical person, I come from a military family. And so, he was obviously thinking about the long game. What makes sense for my children, what makes sense in terms of education? So, he encouraged me to go get a business degree, which I did. I graduated from Texas Tech University Business Management Administration and then allowed me to see a much different view of the world than I have before. So, I had a series of experiences through, believe it or not, networks, where for most of my career I haven’t really had to apply for a job. It’s Who do I know? Who is the network and who asked me to join or participate? So, I started at Enterprise Rent-A-Car, where I thought they had an amazing training program that for me led the Foundation for Business Knowledge, Customer Service, and inclusion. So, I love that opportunity. But I fell into H.R. by accident. I was actually working for Farmers Insurance in the Claims Department, and a colleague of mine said, you are so good at this job. Have you ever thought about human resources where you can help people? But more on the employee side and I’ve had this philosophy most of my career and it say, why not? Why not take a chance? Why not try something new and why not gain some experiences? So, as you can imagine, over the combination of 20 years, I was asked to take on various roles in human resources on the employer relations side, the customer side, the business partner side. And then ultimately when I left farmers, I was actually the head of our field-based HR team or led a pretty large group of drug consultants having everyday support from people and other leaders. So that was an amazing career. Met some someone and this is a great brand. Then I had another why not moment? So, I was approached by a colleague to join Princess Cruises. So, as you can imagine, going from insurance to a cruise line was a big job, but it was an amazing experience. But the challenge was, and we’ll talk with this a little bit. This also occurred the time when the pandemic hit. And so going into a new job with different expectations and shifting gears caused me to change course pretty quickly there. And then this all triggered a year ago where Buckle was standing up in nature function and a colleague reached out to say, we need a head of h.r. Would you be interested? Of course. Why not? So, it’s been a series of experiences over time where hard work asking for help alone to jump in has led to an amazing career or different experiences over the last 20 plus years.
Jo Meunier [00:04:14] Amazing and something that my colleague just brought up. A lot of people are familiar with the term HR But not so many people are familiar with Chief People Officer, so can you explain how that works and what you do?
Cheryl Sinclair [00:04:28] Absolutely. So again, the title actually was Chief Human Resource Officer. When I joined the company was my job description. I changed it based on what we see happening within our profession, where the focus isn’t on a human resource, it’s about people. And I think each of us within the workspace, whether you’re a frontline manager or supervisor or human resources, is all about the people, how we come together. So, it was very intentional of me and others of our colleagues to say the focus on this role is about people. There’s so much that goes with that, whether ism or relations or performance management or compensation. How do we engage each other from a people conversation rather than a transactional term called human resource? So, it’s an evolving term. And also, we were talking. Before this as well. Others are also saying people is evolving. Is it more about the experience? So Chief Happiness Officer. Chief Wellness Officer I think those are things where we’re sending a very strong message that is less transactional, it’s much more personal around connection between people. So, I was very intent with the change in my job and it’s really resonating with the team.
Jo Meunier [00:05:38] And let’s talk briefly about some of the changes you’ve experienced in people management during your career and thinking currently about some of the really pressing topics like work flexibility and being able to work from home and work while being a remote first company. How have things changed in people management in general over the past 10-20 years.
Cheryl Sinclair [00:06:00] Its incredible and one of the things that we’ve tried to focus on is it still has to be about people. And one of the things that we talk about is business as a business. And there are things we have to do in terms of setting up systems to run our companies. But we have this conversation with my team the other day. Is it for the chicken or the egg type of conversation? So, businesses need people in order to do the work, but people need strong companies with structure and systems in order to be effective. So, I take your place in the marketplace today is around. It’s a very different conversation and a very different dialog in terms of how we connect, how we communicate with one another. The level of empathy and gratitude is a much different conversation because employees, candidates are demanding that from us in terms of saying, in exchange for my services and coming to work within your culture, there’s a certain experience I want to make sure that I have. So, I love the place that we’re in our society where we’re demanding different levels of experience and we’re engaging. And so, the conversation comes to the top of the list around people versus, say, more towards middle or the bottom in terms of prioritizing what makes sense for people, how they show up, what they want to experience another workplace. And it’s really changed the dialog where HR is at the forefront of those conversations. But we’re really the facilitator. I see the manager crazy every day. Experience for employees and anything I can do as a chief people officer to support them and to engage the culture in that way I think is very impactful. So, I love the discussion we’re having now.
Jo Meunier [00:07:37] Absolutely. And do you think these changes are here to stay, or do you think there’s a danger that we’re going to creep back to the old ways?
Cheryl Sinclair [00:07:44] I think we’re here to stay. But what I also liked is the fact that there are some things that were done in the past that still made sense. So, one of the things that we’re talking about here in Buffalo, and I’m sure every company is around the world is how do we engage our culture in a way that says these are the things that’s important to us in terms of our core values, the social agenda, the emphasis on core values, living them, and then making sure you emphasize to each other. Here’s how we show up here that things are important to us and here’s how we find common ground is so critical to the success when you’re going to change any type of transformation. And other things are important in terms of how we work together on a day-to-day basis. So, I think is here to stay and I think that conversation will continue to evolve as we do different things to one another as people.
Jo Meunier [00:08:32] And delving more into the culture aspect, what are the cornerstones of a positive and inclusive culture in an organization, and how do you build the type of culture that attracts and retains employees and makes them want to stay?
Cheryl Sinclair [00:08:47] Oh, exactly. And it’s really just based on the same things I just mentioned, Jo. And I think every leader who’s listening to us will understand your core values are everything because it defines how you experience one another, and it sets the tone for the culture. So right now, here at Buckle, working together was called a culture squad. And what we’re doing here is whether this being a top-down management is dictating what the culture will be. We’re engaging everyday employees to have discussions around, what are your experiences today? What’s working, what’s not working, how we aligned to the core values we set as a company and how we’re delivering every single day. So, it’s about listening, engaging our workforce, and trying to define how our core values inform our everyday behaviors. But you have to have a set of core values first, otherwise you won’t have common ground when things get tough. During those times, it goes a long way.
Jo Meunier [00:09:42] And not every organization, depending on their size or the resources they have, they might not all be able to have their own culture squad, but they can certainly listen and engage with their employees, can’t they, even if they’re a small company with just, just two or three employees?
Cheryl Sinclair [00:09:57] I totally agree. And again, there should be an employee led activity call. Just one of those things to talk about. And it’s it seems almost people can’t define what it means. But my thought is start first with your core values and to your point, whether you’re a large company or small, think about how you listen, how you. Follow up how you engage with one another and think about who you want to be and how you want to show up for one another and what makes sense for you, and then you can go from there. So, I’m pleased with the work that our team was doing. We had a number of our employees who just raised their hands. So, if you ask, people will say, hey, this is a part of my work experience. I want to be a part of the solution here that is I have on the table. The challenge with that is with these things, they’re beginning to listen and a part of listening. At some point people want to say, but what are we going to do about it? So, it’s one thing to listen as another thing to listen for understanding, listen for action, and then follow through to ensure the things we commit to do. We follow through in that regard because employees expect us to say, if you ask for my feedback, what do you do with it? And then how do you make sure this is we exercise and on and line?
Jo Meunier [00:11:06] Yes, absolutely. And this must apply to so many different areas of the organization.
Cheryl Sinclair [00:11:11] Workforce and navigating the challenges that are still in the pandemic.
Jo Meunier [00:11:18] Huge challenge. Some years ago, we had the financial crisis. So, in terms of these big, major events and big shifts that are very traumatic for people to deal with both personally and professionally, how do you. Can you talk us through the process of navigating these challenges and working through them? And how do you help your team deal with this type of change?
Cheryl Sinclair [00:11:41] Exactly. And one of the things that I go back to is what we dealt with when I worked at the cruise line, because I imagine that was a significant transformation for our industry but for industries across the board. So, there are a couple things that we focused on when it came to what are the core things that we have to do from a practical perspective to ensure that we’re able to respond to it. Again, as I said before, listening is the one thing you have to take time to listen to people and be prepared to understand and follow up on the things that they might be saying. And communication is huge during times of change, and we learned that a lot during my time with the cruise line in terms of the need to communicate frequently and often in diverse ways. Because I can imagine in the absence of any information, people fill in the gaps in terms of the things that they feel may be happening. And we owe it to our teammates and our employees to tell them what we know, even if this is all we know right now. So, making sure you listen, make it a clear structure for communication is huge because it can be the difference of you got in the workforce and an empathetic and thoughtful way compared to there being some mistrust, rumors and unsettledness that take place in the organization. I think that’s been very impactful for us and I know that a number of companies are tackling this. We also found the value of supporting people in terms of their mental health, spiritual health and even physical health and making sure they have the resources. We can’t forget the fact that people are going through change, and they respond to change in very different ways. And so, make sure that people understand their support systems and their network is so critical. So those are some of the lessons learned that I had coming out of a really difficult experience in a crisis where we weren’t sure what was happening at the time. But listening, communicating, and focusing on help is so critical during times of change.
Jo Meunier [00:13:39] Absolutely. And I know a big part of your work, both past and present, has focused on diversity and inclusion within organizations. Can you explain some of the processes you’ve been through and what it takes to build and maintain a culture of equality within an organization?
Cheryl Sinclair [00:13:57] Absolutely. And it’s one of those things where I have different points of thought when it comes to diversity. And again, as a person of color and a female, I’ll be honest, representation matters and I know those different roles, the thought regarding that. But I’m so proud and I see women being celebrated. I see people of color; I see people diverse backgrounds. We can relate in that regard. So those aren’t things that we do measure. If we can collect information in a thoughtful way, obviously we have to from various government reporting, but we do say, what do we know about our workforce? Where might we have opportunities and are there some different resources and sourcing opportunities to ensure we attract a diverse group of people? What I love about this remote first organization, we’re not limited to certain geographies, so we can begin to extend our reach to different communities where they’re much more diverse. Compared to the fact that when I worked in Kansas City again, if we were only focused on that one area, you again attract the people for which the communities and when you work. So, I like the fact that we can begin to say we now have a national reach. Let’s begin to find diverse people, not just gender and color. It’s diverse background and experiences. So, we do a number that’s very important. The other thing we also do when it comes to compensation and performance management, we use those insights in terms of looking. Yet. What are the equity opportunities that we have? Again, there is a conversation in terms of equity versus equality.
Cheryl Sinclair [00:15:22] And again, we’ve seen the different models and conversations. At the end of the day, we all started from a different place. And there may be situations where we as an organization can do more to help bring others along the way and give them a bit of a step up or step over what that might look like. So that was important to us as well, to think about where there might be training opportunities, where we might have some compensation opportunities, where they might be opportunities for people to learn. So, it is top of mind for us in terms of diversity and inclusion is also very important to us as it relates to where we have policies and practices. Is there anything that we might do that might exclude people, even this unintentional? So again, we look at every practice within the policy within our corporate range in terms of saying, is there something that we’re doing that makes perfect business sense, but it has the unintended consequence of impacting loads of people unnecessarily. So, I like the matter of focus. We log these things with intention because until you make it a goal, it’s not something that you’ll focus on. And then we try to define, well, what does success look like for us? So, in every company has our own measure and each group needs to do that for themselves. What does this look success look like for us? What are the things we’re trying to solve for? What are our core values? It always goes back to core values, right? How you behave and why. And then make sure that your policies and practices begin to align to that in a very intentional way. So, I tried to look at this on a quarterly basis and to ensure are the things we say we’re going to do ring true. But it’s not just a numbers game in terms of saying we’re checking the box on something. It’s a part of our DNA expression being remote first. These are things that just come naturally for us, especially when we look at the population of people that we support in the gig economy, very diverse workforce all across the country. So, we actually have the mindset of how we support those individuals both externally and our people internally. So that’s super high level, but it comes down to core values, have good practices in place that says here are the policies and practices and things that are in place today and doing the islands to make sure that your kind of the things that make sense for your culture. So that’s work well for me. We’ll see those on a getting more specific in terms of programs, but I’m hesitant to do a program. What I want to do is to say, what’s a part of our culture that we do naturally and intuitively, rather than something that could come or go over time.
Jo Meunier [00:17:51] It all keeps coming back to the core values, doesn’t it? Core values and listening and acting.
Cheryl Sinclair [00:17:56] It is it drives everything. And again, this is just from lessons learned of 20 years of change, management of transformation and taking people through change. And whenever you do it, we have to find common ground and you have to do things in a way that is inclusive and is equitable for all concerned. And if you can’t live your core values, then you’re going to have a mismatch with your organization, both externally and internally, because that’s what you’re held accountable for. So, we’ve actually spent some time this last year going back to even revisit our core values, and it’s okay to evolve and change over time because as the marketplace changes, you started off with that question earlier today around art. Is this here to stay or will things evolve over time? They will continue to evolve. So, your mission and vision will always be who you are as a company. That doesn’t change. You might tweak the language, but your values may shift because things change. And so, we want to keep it simple, but it does help to make sure we’re aligned. So, the person to my left and the person to my right will always focus on here is how we behave and how people experience as a company is important.
Jo Meunier [00:19:01] Fantastic. And you mentioned just then that you can now hire nationally because of, and thanks to remote work. And I would say also internationally, if you chose to, you could hire anywhere in the world. And that was one of the things I wanted to ask you was about managing remote teams back or being a remote first organization. A lot of companies have gone that way since the pandemic started and they had to adapt quite quickly, and they are now making those changes permanent. The companies have been dabbling in remote work. Back to the office now go remote again. Not quite sure what to do going forward. What advice can you offer based on your experience to help companies on how to manage remote teams and how to manage a hybrid workplace successfully?
Cheryl Sinclair [00:19:44] It’s such a great question and you would think we would have this figured out right where remotely without being remote. And so, we don’t have all the answers. So obviously, like other companies, there are some core things that we know we had to address. The first one is technology and not as simple as let’s just get people, computers and cameras and we get on video calls. It’s about how do people want to engage using the technology? So, I use myself as an example. So, a person of my generation, I still prefer texting. And email. But you talk to my son, who’s in his twenties. He used to love to use things like Slack and other apps as a different way of communicating. So as a part of technology is not just thinking about the what ifs, also think about how people will engage the technology. What are people comfortable with? We have a diverse workforce, so we have to account for people who are millennials, but that account for people, the boomers, and the Gen Xers. And so, thinking about not only the technology you need, but also how people will use that technology. So, you now have that diverse, inclusive experience that employers have. So, technology is one of those. Because the worst thing that can happen is it’s so frustrating to have Internet that doesn’t work. And so now productive is necessary. So, think about the capabilities of your team. Are they situated in areas where we might have to have maybe small offices or hubs or access to locations in situations where technology may go down? So those are the other things that we’re thinking about. A part of our culture squad is maybe we have regional teams who can begin to identify Meetup spot. So, it gives people some flexibility and adapt ability when that technology is no longer reliable. But what we provided them, so that’s one technology is huge.
Cheryl Sinclair [00:21:30] The thing is, as I mentioned, that we’re going to be for as we did a recent employee survey where again, three quarters of our workforce still likes to work from home setup. They love the flexibility it’s working for them. But the number one concern with that is the loss of connection with their colleagues. So yes, they have every day one on one meetings with their team and they know their immediate teammates. The feedback is, I don’t know others in the company. How can we come together? So, when you’re working with remote teams, keep in mind just because people no longer want to really work in an office full time, some do. Some don’t create a diverse strategy based on what you can afford and sustain. That gives people the opportunity to come together face to face. I’m not sure if you see that online of where all celebrating conferences are back, and you get to meet people in person, and I get to see my teammates. We lost that for almost two years, and we were hungry for it and that’s showing up now in the workplace. So really, we’re here to stay. Remote work isn’t going anywhere, but the need to connect and collaborate is huge. So where to focus on the technology to do it and the locations to do that as well? Part of the thing that we’re thinking about is how do we equip our leaders? So that’s one of the biggest concerns that we get is a leader is asking for feedback. What are the things that I can do and employ in my respective area to make sure I can bring my teams together because desperate on a conference call once a week?
Cheryl Sinclair [00:22:55] But it’s in between that space. I want to think about creatively what do we do? So, I like that my marketing team, they had a great idea to say, forget just having a regular meeting, let’s just pull up, work on a project together over the camera. So, they catch up on their families and their kids. What’s going on while they’re doing work? Our I.T. team is doing an amazing job of saying, let’s do some games once a week just to engage in some think taking some material in that regard. And within my team, I’m like once a week during our staff meeting, we’re going to have a fun topic every call. So, it really comes down to connection when you have a workforce and understanding what people need. The physical location is easy is the connection, which is really the hard part that we’re trying to figure out.
Jo Meunier [00:23:39] And understanding what people need and finding that balance is so important, isn’t it? Because ultimately unhappy people won’t stick around. They’ll vote with their feet.
Cheryl Sinclair [00:23:48] They won’t. But things are evolving. You know, as we have parents, we now get the value to take their child to the bus stop. Or you may be caring for an aging parent or maybe want to get that work out into the middle of the day. These are things that people value day to day. So those are the things we’re solving for to keep our workforce flexible, find ways to communicate and collaborate, but also make sure people still are connected to the company and not as isolated. Yeah.
Jo Meunier [00:24:12] And one of the things that I can’t help but see all over the news and the headlines is the great resignation, followed by the great return. So, are you seeing these trends in action? Are you aware of them? Are the headlines speaking the truth?
Cheryl Sinclair [00:24:28] The headlines are speaking the truth. Obviously, we’re in a different state, really the great return. And I love these labels. We put on things in terms of the great resignation, which I think that made sense coming out of the pandemic in a different stage of the pandemic, where we really got to reevaluate what we value, what’s important to us. So, I think about the resignation piece. There were a lot of reasons for that where people said, I want a different experience or based on my personal situation, I need to move out of state. So, there were a number of valid reasons for people saying, why not do something different? Why not take on a different opportunity? Why not see what else is out there? As I revisit this balance between my home and my life. So that doesn’t that doesn’t surprise me at all. All because of a shortage of talent. Again, there were a number of factors that took place. As to why people did not immediately come back into the workforce, which we’re still dealing with. So, it’s just very interesting to see what’s taking place. So, it is very real. But as you see with a great return, there’s a number of factors for that as well. There are a number of situations where people may have been laid off, maybe they were furloughed, maybe they had a personal situation that during the height of the pandemic took them to a different state or back to their home country for lots of reasons. And now they’re saying, my life situation has changed at home, I’d love to come back, or that maybe the person who did that, why not try something new to say, you know what, I missed the connection that I had to my prior company and the colleagues, and I spent ten, 15, 20 years connecting with it. So, I went where we are.
Cheryl Sinclair [00:25:55] Once again, people are coming to the forefront. We’re all resetting what’s important to us. We’re asking boldly for the things that are important to us. And these are the symptoms we see in the marketplace I think is here to stay. How is impacted us is how we changed our recruitment practices, the resetting expectations of people, leaders to say we’re no longer recruiting the person to be here for five years. We’ll be lucky to get people to stay within 1 to 2 years so that practices change. Performance management for recruiting source. So, all those people practices are being change, which is fine, but there’s an education component with the leadership team to help bring them along, especially if they are used to traditional practices. And there may be the immediate thought around, well, this person has changed jobs the last two or three years. We provide content. There was a reason why COVID changed a lot of things for different people, where maybe they had to change jobs every year or an industry was no longer in place. So, we’re reinventing our understanding of the workforce and what the workforce needs and making sure we can respond. So, I hope it makes perfect sense coming out of the pandemic because we’re all searching for that balance for ourselves. But things cool a little bit, which is great, and people settle down.
Jo Meunier [00:27:12] That’s really interesting. And you touched on some of the challenges that we’re currently experiencing, such as the labor shortage and looking slightly further ahead into the future of work, what do you think are some of the biggest people challenges coming our way in the future? And my next question would be, how do you think we can solve them?
Cheryl Sinclair [00:27:32] Yeah, that’s a great question. The biggest issue is resetting traditional work practices and traditional HR systems that accounted for a workforce that’s assumed to stay five years plus. We have a much more flexible and i think this was one of the words that came up nomadic type of candidate or employee out there who demands different from organizations. I also think we see a trend with millennials again that will be one of the highest numbers of people in the workforce by 2025 have very different demands and needs than people like myself. And so, we have to begin to account for what policies and procedures and practices, what do they care about, and then what’s going extend what they care about. We can begin to carve out different packages that account to their needs for flexibility and person connection. ESG, right, the environmental, the social purpose, those things matter. And so, we’re obviously beginning to have a much more agile mindset regarding our policies and practices to adapt to the workforce, who’s out there today. So that’s going be the biggest challenge is you can’t necessarily fall back on those big traditional programs. They won’t ring true for you going forward. You have to be able to think about having things that are much more adaptable, flexible to account for what people are demanding in the workplace. Then making sure that is the person that that meets different people’s needs is inclusive and equitable. That’s going to be the big challenge for us.
Jo Meunier [00:28:57] Fantastic. And there’s so many questions I still want to ask you, but we are running low on time. And so, thinking back over the conversation, what are some takeaways that people can take forwards? And in terms of the future of work and where do we go from here, what would you say? How can companies make their approach to people management more about the people, less about the corporation?
Cheryl Sinclair [00:29:21] Absolutely. The first thing we have to do is we have to listen, and we have to listen for understanding. And what we have a tendency of doing is just listening and then trying to come up with their own agenda. So be open to listen to people and be prepared if you can afford it and sustain it. Find ways to say these things are important to us. We want your experience to be good here and here are the things that we’re willing to do in advance and follow through. The second thing is you have to continue to communicate. So, it’s important for people to understand more about your company, what your values are, how they show up to make sure people feel involved and included because of the feedback that we receive as people don’t feel a part of something when there’s a lack of communication. And then finally you’ve got to have an agile mindset. Things will change and change and change. So, it’s okay to fall back on things that served you well in the past. Be prepared to say that served as one of the. Things we can do differently. So, listen, communicate well and be agile and then begin to have a very different conversation and be people first. Focus while you’re still ensuring that you need to have a business in which for people to come to develop, to thrive. So that’s served me well over the various ideas and conversations I’ve had, and those are the things we’re focused on here at Buffalo in terms of making sure we’re listening to our team. We’re communicating clearly and often what we’re being flexible and adaptable where we can as our business is changing.
Jo Meunier [00:30:46] Fantastic. Well, that was brilliant. Thank you so much, Cheryl, for giving us so many fascinating insights into Buckle and into your experiences of people management. And finally, if people want to get in touch with you to learn more about Buckle or to learn more about people, management and so on, how can they get in touch with you to learn more?
Cheryl Sinclair [00:31:06] Absolutely. So directly. I’m on LinkedIn and so it is Cheryl Sinclair. You can find it under buckle also going to our website at buckle up dot com is the best way to find out more about our company but also learn about our team in me as well.
Jo Meunier [00:31:19] Fantastic. Okay. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Cheryl, and enjoy the rest of your day.
Cheryl Sinclair [00:31:23] Jo, so nice to talk with you today. Thank you.
Jo Meunier [00:31:26] Thank you.