Giovanni Palavicini – President of the Global Workspace Association | Aggregation, Consolidation, and Growth: The Future of Flexible Workspaces

Frank Cottle [ 00:00:22]: Giovanni, welcome to the Future of Work podcast. Really excited to have you with us today and looking forward to our conversation. See, I’ve known you for about a decade, not quite a decade now, since about 2016, and you’ve been in the industry, in the flexible worksplace industry for 1516 years now, if I’m not mistaken.

Giovanni Palavicini [  00:00:43]: Yeah, I really appreciate you having me on. It’s exciting to be on with one of the godfathers of the flexible workspace industry.

Frank Cottle [ 00:00:53]: Yeah, remember what happens to the Godfather, though? It never ends well.

Giovanni Palavicini [  00:01:00]: Again, I appreciate you having me on. And yeah, it’s been a little over ten years that I’ve been in the industry. And as you and I were just talking about, we first crossed paths as I was leaving Regis after being on the real estate team for four and a half years. And it’s been great to see the industry continue growing and evolving and having new players come and go.Right.And so just excited to talk about what’s currently going on in the industry and kind of the future and everything around it.

Frank Cottle [ 00:01:30]: Well, first, let’s define the industry so that everybody knows, because our audience is quite broad and everything. So when we’re talking about the flexible workspace industry, in my definition at least, you may have another one. We’re talking about two things. First, we’re talking about all operators of space that combine people, place and technology into a single bundled product that they deliver with a highly flexible service agreement. Would you agree that that defines the operator portion of our industry?

Giovanni Palavicini [ 00:02:07]: Absolutely.

Frank Cottle [ 00:02:08 ]:
Okay. And then I’ll build on that and say that there are basically different brands of operators. There’s the serviced office brand, which has a brand promise of professional image and services. Regis, where you were as a good example of that. There’s the co working brand, which says business growth through a collaborative community as a brand promise. Then you’ve got incubators which say all that, both of those, plus mentoring, you’ve got accelerators, say yeah, incubators plus access to capital. And then you’ve got media centers, culinary centers, et cetera. All these offshoots as well. That’s the operator side. But that’s not the whole industry. The industry is the operators, the service companies, the agents and brokers, the property companies and most importantly the customer. So all of that is the flexible workspace industry that we’re talking about, in my opinion at least.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:03:17]: Yeah, no, without a doubt. And I mean, I think the amazing part about it is the evolution of the product offering, right. Which is kind of what you just mentioned is there’s so many different ways to deliver the flexible product out to the customer, right. And the customer is quickly becoming not just a solopreneur, an entrepreneur, but now it’s a small to medium sized and even large enterprise company. But also the landlords.Right.We’re seeing more and more of the landlords buy into.

Frank Cottle [ 00:03:49 ]: They’re playing two roles, the property role and the operator role. More and more now that’s been going on for decades, but we’re seeing it now as shifting to, I won’t say mainstream yet, but very much more so than it used to be. I agree.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:04:06]: Yeah, no, absolutely. And it’s becoming a major part of every real estate provider’s offering, right. Because it needs to be like for example, I’m in California right now, I’m in just south of San Francisco and Silicon Valley and I was out here touring with Bain and company. Know they’re looking at flexible workspace offerings, whether it be in the flexible workspace space within operation or within a landlord’s portfolio. And spec suites, right, that are going to be a little more turnkey. But even while driving around, give you a great example that we’ve seen more and more of pop up is specialized offerings by operators. And so there’s a huge life science lab community here, right. And so just right off the highway there’s lab suites that offer people the opportunity companies to have a space to go into and have office space and then utilize the lab space, which is so expensive.

Frank Cottle [ 00:05:11 ]: Oh yeah, wet walls are hugely expensive. When you look at any clinical type stuff. I know we’re doing, changing, following on your lead for the issue of the expansion of the industry, we’re doing a full, not global but us network. We’ve got about 2000 different practicing psychologists into a single structured network now that is emerging. And so all variety of people I think are going to exactly what you have plastered on your forehead. Flex, flex. We could say 25 years ago, 20 years ago, you’d say every good company needs two things, a great product and access to capital. Those two things you can be successful today you would say, yeah, that, but they got to have flexibility too. The times, the acceleration of change back and forth or the cyclical nature of business has accelerated to the degree of without flexibility, you will not succeed even with those two core components.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:06:28]: Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, the talent pool is requiring the flexibility.Right.I give the example of people have the conversation of COVID dynamically changed how we worked.

Frank Cottle [ 00:06:42]: Because the talent pool is demanding that.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:06:44]: Before COVID Well, and that’s what I.

Frank Cottle [ 00:06:45]: Was getting when the big fight for talent started.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:06:48]: Yeah, but the examples I give are two things. One, right, the laptop that I’m recording on, I don’t know if that’s what you’re using, but also our cell phones.And the fact that there was a time where you had to go to an office and plug into the wall for your computer.And once you stopped having to plug into the wall for your computer, no one’s going to go back and be like, oh, I need to plug into the wall.Same thing with our phones as landlines are now kind of a thing of the past. But the same thing goes with this flexible workspace, the flexibility, the hybrid model that people were able to experience going into Covid, but also coming out of COVID I tell people, being hispanic, it’s the first time that I’ve seen in the US, people find a work life balance like they never had before.Because they were able to wake up in the morning, do their workouts, do their reading, walk their kids to school, do different things that before, especially, I mean, here in California, people were driving an hour, 2 hours, two and a half hours work each way.And so the flexible hybrid model has allowed for people to be more efficient, to be more productive in a lot of ways, but there’s still a need to go into an office and plug in with people and have community and build a culture. Right.

Frank Cottle [ 00:08:09]: Well, I think human beings are gregarious. Otherwise we wouldn’t have tribes and nations and we’d be borderless people. So we do like to be around others, and we like to be around others that are like us. And I would posit that before you used to say, oh, I want to go and find a good coworking or business center that is near this, has these amenities and has this and has that, and location is good or whatever. And today I think it’s not where you work in a co working or business center, but it’s who you work with, who are your peers in that center so that you can be part of a community. And so I think there’s a lot more selection criteria. And I know that in interviews that we’ve done and work research that we’ve done, we see that at least half of the people over at Allwork.Space, we’re servicing about 180,000 clients. And about half of the inquiries that we get, they’ve been on our Facebook page. They’ve come to see who we are as a company operationally, not just what our ads say and this and that. And I think that’s true of everybody that makes an inquiry now of every business and coworking center in the world. They check out what’s happening there, not just where is it. I think that’s a very important change.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:09:42]: Yeah. No, I tell people it’s as much about the operator interviewing the potential member as it is the other way around.Is we’re trying to build community. We’re trying to build, like, you use the word tribe. I love that word.We’re trying to build a tribe. And there are some people, some spaces that just don’t overlap and correlate with each other. And so it’s just a matter of finding space that basically speaks to what you’re trying to do. I mean, you gave a great example, is therapists and counselors.They need quiet space, they need privacy. They need those things. And so traditionally, they’ve gone into a lot of executive suites.With the hard walls, hard doors. But a lot of those places aren’t necessarily conducive to privacy.

Frank Cottle [ 00:10:34]: Well, the issue there is the reception area, because a lot of these are family practice. You’ve got to have a specialized reception structure that isn’t compatible. Wouldn’t be compatible with me. I don’t want a bunch of kids in my reception area. So there is that element, too, of specialization within a customer base is how it works overall. But what changes beyond the landlord, the property companies playing a bigger role. And I think that’s driven by three things. First, vacancy factors. They don’t have any other tenants. Second, jealousy. They want the money that IWG is making off of their space. They don’t want IWG to profit off them anymore. And I’ll instead of WeWork because we know WeWork never profited overall. And a recognition, and I had this pointed out to me years ago in the. Was in a meeting and there was all the big wigs. I was just a punk kid. It was the, wasn’t really a kid, but I was the youngest guy at the meeting. And I’m sitting there with Jerry Hines and Sam Zell, a couple of others, Trammel Crow, and they asked Zell, hey, Sam, why do you have these smart suites? Because I don’t know if you probably don’t remember. Not Zelle when it was equity office properties had 58 centers and they’re called smart suites in each of his buildings. And he built them. He built them himself anywhere. And he said, and I think this is what the landlords are recognizing now. This is the third component there. He said, I want to be able to service the entire lifecycle of my customer 100%. Okay. And all the other guys went, yeah, but they’re so small. He says, I don’t care. That’s what I want to be able to do. And I think that’s what a lot of property companies are recognizing now that they can service the full lifecycle profitably and with more stability than they can just getting another law firm as a tenant. And I think that they’re going through that change right now. And the reason they can do that is that the asset managers of the lenders or the financial institutions behind them are now allowing it where 20 years ago they wouldn’t allow it. You had to be someone of zell stature to be able to convince them that you’re going to take a full floor and mess with it. And I think that that’s a big difference also that is going to allow the flex space industry to grow materially.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:13:27]: Well, there’s so many things that have changed. Right. To begin with, you just mentioned the lifecycle of a tenant. The lifecycle of a tenant is significantly less than it used to be. Right. So 5710 year leases aren’t the same as they were back then.A company can go from cradle to grave in that five to seven year period.

Frank Cottle [00:13:51]: Or cradle to unicorn.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:13:53]: Yeah, exactly. Right. And then that’s part of it. They’ve either been murdered, there’s been a merger, they’ve been acquired, they’ve gone out of business. And so I tell people, I think we’re going to get to the point where people, companies are signing leases for a building and will expand and contract within a building as opposed to signing leases for a specific space.And so we’re seeing that where landlords are starting to go, okay, we need to be able to have, and I’m just going to give an example, right, executive suites on the really community space on the first floor with conference facilities, executive suites, some type of smart or spec suite component that plays off. Then they’re going to have, call it a quarter of a floor, half a floor and full floor and multiple floor options. And so people are going to be able to grow within a building.So that was a big part of it. In the past, when we had letterhead and all these things that we don’t have as much of today, it was inconvenient for a company to move a lot, whether it be within a building or change addresses altogether. And now everything’s digital, so it’s not as much of a hassle to do those things. And so those things have shift. Right, the overall lifecycle of a company. Number one. Number two, back then, like we mentioned earlier, you had to plug in to a wall, whether it be your laptop, your phone, all those things. And so you had those things that hindered that convenience, but also the fact that back then, people were all going to one central hub and spoke location, if you will. So there was one central place where employees went. Well, now it’s kind of flipped around, right, where more people want to office closer to home. So the suburbs, the spokes have become more of the hubs. And then there is a central place where people go to build culture, to have community, to have big meetings. But for the most part, people want to be office in close, to call it ten to 15 minutes from their home.

Frank Cottle [00:16:05]: It’s funny, when we first started building what were then called executive suites, we were building buildings, and we built buildings across the southwestern US, California, Arizona and Texas between 80 and 90. And we were unsure of ourselves and wanted to impress our financial partner. So we had a big marketing study done. And the only thing I remember from that book that they gave us was, tenants want to live. There are two things tenants want to live five minutes from their home and 30 minutes from their customer. Not 30 minutes from their home and five minutes from their customer. Okay, I remember that. The other thing I was doing is the decision makers live on the curvy streets. The non decision makers live on the straight streets. Pick your site accordingly. That was the sum total of our output from this ridiculously expensive study that we had done. But it’s true. Those two things are really true. They’re as true today, maybe even more so because of the value of time than they were back in 1980. And so I think your point about selection flexibility is absolutely right on, and I don’t think it’s changing. We said back in 1617 area that there’s no such thing as an occupier anymore. There are only travelers. There are only travelers. And I would even blow up the spoken hub concept a little bit, and I would look at it more as a scatter graph that has natural magnetic points around it based on management or based on talent or based on a customer. I think that that is probably more what we’re going towards in the future of work as opposed to the classic hub and spoke.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:18:05]: And I’ll tell you where I found the most success when I joined Regis was most of the Regis team, the real estate team were either former corporate in house people or they were office brokers.And my background is, know, we’re, we’re essentially a retailer that happens to go in an office setting. Right. Back to your point of the occupier is really a consumer now. Right?

Frank Cottle [00:18:29]: There is no occupier. There’s only travelers.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:18:31]: Yeah.

Frank Cottle [00:18:36]: Who has treated travelers for centuries, innkeepers and hotels.So the hospitality aspect of that, which goes along with hanging out with people like yourself. I stay in a certain type of hotel because people at that hotel are kind of like me and I’m comfortable there. There’s a community model. Hotels have had community models and inns have had that type of a model for centuries. So we’re really travelers. And as operators replicating a hospitality system as a product for sure, that delivers, instead of beds and clean sheets, we deliver office space and bandwidth. But it’s still a service business in my view, more than anything else, we are a service industry. We’re real estate dependent, like a hotel or a restaurant is to provide our services. But still, I think we remain a service industry.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:19:41]: Yeah.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:19:42 ]: And I use the Bonvoy model all the time. Right. You remember when Marriott was just Marriott, right? Now they’ve got 35 plus brands. Choose your own adventure depending on what it is that you’re looking for.And you’re even starting to see some overlap on brand offerings. Right. If I look at Bonvoy and people say, well, what’s their luxury line? And I’m like, well, they have the Ritz Carlton, which is super bougie. They have the four seasons, which is a little more laid back. Then they have their autograph, which is more boutiquey and a little more eclectic. But again, those are three luxury brands.

Frank Cottle [00:20:22]: I’m an autograph guy. I like small boutique stuff much more than the larger institutional. Even the rich is too institutional.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:20:34]: And even if you look at the limited service. We’ll use a courtyard by Marriott.Which is meant to be to target, call it the more blue collar, maybe light white collar.

Frank Cottle [00:20:51]: Or efficient quality, I guess would be better saying it.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:20:54]: Well, now they’ve created the AC hotel, which is essentially meant for the business traveler, which is essentially about the same price point, but it’s got a different finish out. So more of the white collar, professional people stay there. And so it’s just interesting to see that overall product evolution and offering.

Frank Cottle [00:21:13]: Right.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:21:13]: As more and more people are using the space and are needing different things. Going back to the counselor.

Frank Cottle [00:21:18]: Right.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:21:19]: I mean, I work with a group called Therapy space that does only therapy and counseling spaces.

Frank Cottle [00:21:26]: Right.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:21:26 ]: So they take very close attention to the lobby area where, like you said, people are waiting. And typically it’s a larger area because if you’ve got 25 offices, there’s potentially you’ve got anywhere between 25 to 40 people that are waiting to see those counselors every hour.

Frank Cottle [00:21:46]: Right.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:21:47]: So it’s got to be a larger space.

Frank Cottle [00:21:48]: And they’re all crazy, by the way. They’re all crazy, yeah.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:21:52]: And so you have to count for it differently than if you are in a space that’s professionally driven towards a CPA or a lawyer or a technology provider or anything.

Frank Cottle [00:22:04]: No, that’s absolutely right. When you talk about multi brands translating back to the flex industry, a company that you used to work for has made a major transition to a multibrand company as part of their overarching strategy since about 16 or 17, 2016 or 17. And that’s IWG. We talked about Regis. Well, that’s just one now of about ten brands under that umbrella. Now, they are destined to become the Starwood or the Marriott multi brand. Marriott, I think more like Starwood, actually, of our industry. And they don’t seem to care in a negative or a positive way. It doesn’t matter to them which brand they’re promoting so long as the brand sticks with its promise to the consumer overall. And we were talking earlier about franchise and franchise groups and the same thing. The United franchise now has three separate brands, each of which were independent prior to that, each of which are still operating independently, but they meet different needs both geographically, and I won’t say service quality, but service type.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:23:28]: Yeah.

Frank Cottle [00:23:29]: So that makes perfect sense. I don’t know whether that or a landlord driven brand that says, take equity office properties, that owns business. Excuse me, office quarters. Office, not office quarters. I’m going blank here. The office company, the office company in the UK, that’s a single brand, but they have blended their development to say, well, when we’re in this type of neighborhood, we’ll match that neighborhood. When we’re in another neighborhood, we’ll match that neighborhood where their brand says, we are neighborhood centric cosmetically and structurally, but we only have one category of service that’s a four star plus service. So that’s an interesting way to deal with a multi brand requirement. While sustaining a single structure.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:24:28]: Yeah. And it all goes back to the hospitality deployment.

Frank Cottle [00:24:31]: Right.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:24:31]: I mean, ultimately, that’s what you’re trying to achieve. I mean, I’ll give you a great example. I stayed in AC just last week in southern Florida when I was out there, and I kid you not, I was 15ft from the door and I could already smell the AC hotel, right. Because they have a scent. It goes with the AC if you go to the west and there’s a different scent if you go to the courtyard. And so the idea is using sense and using our sensory ability to connect things, they’ve created those things on purpose.

Frank Cottle [00:25:04]: Right.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:25:04]: And so the goal is when you go to Regis, you know what you’re going to get in a Regis, right. If I go to spaces, I know what I’m going to get in a spaces. If I go to Regis Express in Europe or Asia, I know what that’s going to look like. And so that’s the idea is to create a brand offering that enables the end user, the traveler, if you will, to know what they’re going to get when they’re there.

Frank Cottle [00:25:32]: Right.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:25:32]: Everything.

Frank Cottle [00:25:33]: And that’s important. So many companies, large companies or smaller companies in particular in the serve, flexible office industry, you might say somebody that owns three to five centers, they say, oh, my brand this, my brand that. And you look at them say, nobody outside of your neighborhood knows who you are. You don’t have a brand. You might have a good reputation, but you don’t have a brand yet. Now they’re working on building their reputation up and everything to the point where one day they may have a brand, but so much brand discussion is really reputation discussion, or should be terminology wise, as opposed to someone like IWG or Regis that really does, or we work for better or worse, that really does have a brand and something that they stand for. Overall, what changes? As you pull out a crystal ball and look into the next five years, we’ve talked about property companies. What other changes do you see that you think are material? Not so much to the operators in the industry, but maybe to the customers using the industry, the clients, what do you see as major trends for the customer coming forward?

Giovanni Palavicini [00:27:02]: Yeah, so I think those things overlap.

Frank Cottle [00:27:04]: Right.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:27:05]: Because let’s start from a capital market standpoint. We’re getting buy in from a capital market standpoint right now, where before, if you looked at apartments or self storage or things like that, it was customary to do a one year lease, and so the overall valuation of those was easily done as opposed to office lenders and landlords, owners, investors have looked at it as 5710 year leases.

Frank Cottle [00:27:31]: Right.In countries in Europe, it’s ten and 15 year leases.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:27:37]: So we’re going to see more and more of that buy in.So that buy in, what it’s going to do and how it affects the customer, the traveler, if you will, is the fact that there’s going to be more and more options.There’s going to be more and more buy ins. But you continue to use the hotels as an example. If I land in an airport, we’ll call it San Francisco airport, and I look up hotels, how many hotels pop up? I’m going to get 50 to 75. That pop up.Different brands, different offerings, different price points. So we’re going to see more and more of that evolution.So the customer is going to have more of an option as to what kind of product they want. Exactly. So that’s going to be one side.The second part is the overall buy in by the enterprise occupier community.I mean, they’re going to be all looking great example, right. I use Bain and company as an example, which I toured with. Well, they’ve got 80,000ft to service their 700 plus employees in the Bay Area. And so that’s their hub, if you will, or their primary place to congregate. But they recognize that they need a small footprint in Silicon Valley.And so they’re looking at a flex opportunity there, whether it be within an operation or within a landlord’s portfolio, in a spec suite or turnkey space.And so that’s a great example where large companies are using the Flex component to service their entire organization.And their greater asset offering and ability to plug in and sell.Because they’ve got to bring the talent in, number one. But number two, they also have to service the client.

Frank Cottle [00:29:29]: Could we say that the industry in about 2017, 1819, became strategic to its users as opposed to tactical?

Giovanni Palavicini [00:29:41]: Oh, absolutely.I mean, it’s convenience driven.That’s what the whole business is, flex driven.

Frank Cottle [00:29:49]: Flex is convenience.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:29:50]: Correct.

Frank Cottle [00:29:52]: And everything. But I do think we have become, as an industry, strategic. Where do you think that? I won’t say stops, but plateaus, because I don’t think we’re in a plateau yet at all.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:30:05]: I mean, I think it continues evolving.

Frank Cottle [00:30:07]: Right.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:30:07]: And just going back to the retail model, for example, that’s very strategic.

Frank Cottle [00:30:13]: Right.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:30:13]: Typically the problem, back to your tactical versus strategic. Before, it was really easy for someone to say, hey, we’re going to put a location in the middle of a business park or near other office space. Well, now the strategy changes of you want to be closer to the rooftops, you want to be closer to retail and amenitization. And so those things evolve and shift. Now that you’re looking at things from a more strategic standpoint of if I’m looking to build a network, right, if I’m looking to build different offerings, I have to be very strategic as to where I’m putting locations and how they affect my ability to grow a network, because that’s ultimately what we’re selling, right. That’s what you do so well with alliance is you’ve got different operators and product types that are basically in your network. And so when people are traveling, they’re able to use different spaces as needed, whether it be they need conference space, they need a day office, they need space for longer than a day, right. They’re going to be traveling and they need somewhere for a week or two. So that’s the goal, is how do we create an overall network that people can tap into? And so that has to be very strategic.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:31:29]: Where is your competition? How’s your competition different than you? And overall, how does your overall strategic growth play out?

Frank Cottle [00:31:43]: You bring up a bad image to me of that movie anywhere, everything, anywhere, all the time. And I’m going, oh, no, not sausage fingers, but that really is what you’re talking about. And that’s what you have. The one thing that I think our industry, or one of the things I think our industry is missing to allow that to occur is something that you had when you were looking for a hotel in your recent travel, when you looked at a booking site, hotels.com, booking.com expedia, which you probably looked at rather than just ac only, right. There was this little thing called 12345 stars. There was a grading system. There was a system that the booking engines were big enough and powerful enough to push on to the inventory, the hotels, or vice versa. And they decided as a group that this would help all of them get the right customer in the right place more easily and would make more revenue and sales for everybody. And the flexible workspace industry absolutely lacks that. There have been a couple of attempts, but there has been no industry wide initiative on a global basis or even on a national basis to effectively do that. So I think that’s one thing that we look forward that we should all consider and say, how do we come together to do that overall on an overarching basis? It’s good for everybody. Same with price. Transparency is good for everybody. You made part of your decision on a hotel based on. Oh, I know that brand. I can see where they are, and they’re at the right price point because hotels go up and down. They’re at the right price point today. Dynamic pricing, all of those things are still to come in the flexible workspace industry.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:33:47 ]: Yeah, I think transparency is a big part. You mentioned you’re, you’re obviously a big part of the community for a long time. But as you look at alliance, as you look at juicy, as you look at GWA, as you look at the flex groups that are in Europe and other places, the problem is everyone’s having the same conversation. Is how do we create one place that people can go to, right. I mean, like, for example, the great example for hotels is the Star report. I can buy a star report, and I know exactly where my competition is. I know what their occupancy is on average. I know what their rack rate is. We don’t have that in our industry. And a big part of it is so many people think that they’ve got some secret sauce, right. Like if they share it, all of a sudden they’re going to lose their competitive edge.

Frank Cottle [00:34:40]: I still remember when in 96, when Pegasus reestablished that structure in the hotel industry and orbits was developed and saber was developed in the cetera, all that transparency came around and the hotel and airline industries blossomed. So we have a model to look at and a goal that will help everybody overall, including the customer, most importantly the customer. It’s something that we should probably do anyway. I was going to say we’re running long on time here. I think we could drag this out for another 2 hours if we wanted to. So one last question. If you were to make one overarching forecast for the next three to five years for the flexible workspace industry, what would that be? And then how do people reach you if they want to, to find out more about?

Giovanni Palavicini [00:35:48]: So, I mean, I think we’re going to continue to see consolidation and mean, we mentioned UFG and vast, which is what they’ve created, has Venturex office evolution now, intelligent office under it. You’ve got IWG that has obviously Regis spaces, Regis signature. They’ve got all kinds of under there, but we’re going to continue to see that.So I think you’ll see more of that consolidation, I think at some point here, and we saw Starwood and we’ve seen Blackstone give Regis a run in the past to try to create that. So I think you’re going to get a real estate providers that continue figuring this out from a landlord standpoint. Right. And we’ve seen investments by Brookfield and some of the bigger groups convene and industrious. So that’s another one. I think you’re going to get the landlords involved more and more. You’re going to get the private equity groups involved and then the service providers, we’re still looking for them to figure out what’s going on.The Cushmans, the CBres, the JLLs are all trying to figure that out.So there’s going to be more and more buy in from that standpoint and they’re at some point going to figure out how to create some of these. They’ve, there’s been some failed attempts by CBRE with Hana and some other stuff, but I think there’s going to be more and more buy in so that you do have large providers. I mean, right now you’ve got IWG, wework, and now number three. Who would have guessed that UFG and vast would be number three with 190 plus locations, right? And so I think you’re going to continue to create that consolidation of brand offerings just like you’ve seen Starwood and Bonvoy do. So I think that’s a big one. And so it’s going to take buy in from everyone, right? Including the landlords, investors, the lenders, the.

Frank Cottle [00:37:45]: Entire industry structure, all five of those components. No, I would agree with that. I think consolidation and growth through acquisitions and brand expansion, extension, I’ll say, are the two ways that we’ll see that happen, whether it’s roll ups or pure acquisitions. It’ll be both. Ultimately, I would agree with you on that. Major element coming on and the industry is maturing and starting to attract capital at a variety of levels, not just at the largest level. And I think that’s exciting. Giovanni, where would people and how would somebody reach you if they wanted to talk more about the industry?

Giovanni Palavicini [00:38:27]: So again, appreciate you having me on. It’s been an honor and a privilege, but best places to get a hold of me. I mean, I’m super active on LinkedIn. I post all works articles all the time, but you can find me easily on LinkedIn. And I constantly post stuff. You can go to my website, fronterisre.com and then I’m excited to get you on. We’re going to have you on the flex Uncensored podcast here in the next few weeks. So super excited to get you on and dive into kind of your background.

Frank Cottle [00:38:58]: And all that I’ll trim my beard a little bit if I’m going to be.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:39:02]: You look great just the way you are. But again, I love just interacting with people and just hearing kind of what people are seeing in different capacities and offering what it is I’m seeing. Right? And I think that’s the beauty of your open, transparent personality along with other people in the industry is there has to be more open collaboration where we’re not holding things so close to the vest if you will, where we’re able to collaborate and give information at the same time as get it. And so I’m happy to have any discussions with anyone that wants to reach perfect.

Frank Cottle [00:39:37]: Well thank you very much for participating today. We’re really grateful for it and we’ll look forward to hearing more from you.

Giovanni Palavicini [00:39:44]: Thank you so much.

Frank Cottle [00:39:45]:Take care Giovanni.