About This Episode
Hybrid work is no longer an experiment and has now become the standard operating model for much of the workforce. In this episode of The Future of Work® Podcast, Frank Cottle spoke with Wesley Edmonds, Director of Workplace at OFS, to explore how organizations can create workplaces that employees genuinely want to use.
Drawing from workplace research, design expertise, and conversations with architects, designers, and business leaders, Wesley explains why today’s workplace must go far beyond furniture, layouts, and amenities. The discussion examines employee autonomy, workplace experience, culture, productivity, and the growing importance of designing environments that support a wide range of work styles and human needs.
The conversation also explores the role of AI, flexible workspace strategies, coworking environments, and how organizations can prepare for constant change. As companies continue balancing employee expectations with business goals, this episode offers practical insights into creating workplaces that support engagement, performance, and long-term talent retention.
About Wesley Edmonds
Wesley Edmonds is the Director of Workplace for OFS. She earned her degree in Interior Design and began her career as a commercial interior designer. Her experience in both design and workplace solutions allows her to help OFS lead conversations around workplace strategy, product innovation, and the future of work. Wesley also hosts the In The ROOM series on OFS’s Imagine a Place podcast, where she explores workplace trends with end users and industry experts.
What You’ll Learn
- Why hybrid work has become the preferred model for most employees.
- How workplace experience impacts employee retention.
- What it means for an office to “earn the commute.”
- Why autonomy has become a major factor in talent attraction.
- How workplace design influences productivity and engagement.
- The importance of designing for neurodiverse work styles.
- Why flexible spaces outperform one-size-fits-all environments.
- How AI may change workplace design requirements.
- The growing role of coworking and third-space strategies.
- Why designing for change can protect long-term business performance.
Transcript
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:00:00,000 ]The war on talent is really a war for providing autonomy. So these employees are wanting, needing, and demanding— dare I say— choice. They aren’t going to stay because of snacks, and some are not even willing to stay for salary.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:00:17,710 ] Wesley Welcome to the Future of Work podcast.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:00:21,240 ] Thank you for having me.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:00:24,110 ] Gosh, we don’t usually get people with your design credentials in the podcast, so that makes it particularly exciting.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:00:31,280 ] Gosh, well, thanks for saying that. I don’t usually get called someone with a lot of design credentials, so that means a lot, but I really appreciate it. I’m so glad to be here.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:00:41,140 ] Design these days isn’t about Just cosmetics.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:00:46,050 ] It’s about designing the workplace, not just the cosmetics, the furniture, the colors, the layout, etc. And so I’d like to talk a little bit about recent work, uh, workplace academies, World of Work report.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:01:03,780 ] I thought it was very interesting, something that you shared with us earlier, and also the fact that we’re not going back to the office. Not full-time. That’s over. Any discussion about it is over.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:01:20,300 ] And so talk about hybrid work. Absolutely, what that means and how it how it functions and and also talk about the importance of making the workplace worth going to.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:01:35,710 ] Hmm.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:01:36,600 ] On the limited time that we’re going to be spending there, let’s assume that we’re going to be spending three days a week there. Keep it average, right now—this is what we’re seeing. Um. How do we make it worth going there instead of just the same as it always was?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:01:51,610 ] In the past, which is why we left in the first place.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:01:55,650 ] The pandemic had nothing to do with it. It was all about the war for talent.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:01:59,450 ] Totally.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:02:00,420 ] Uh, all about the war for talent. So we can hit that as well. Okay.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:02:04,430 ] Yeah, that’s perfect.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:02:06,840 ] I have a very unique perspective into the design world because that is primarily who we have the pleasure of working with. So we’re often working with architects and designers.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:02:18,390 ] Who are designing these spaces, whether it be the corporate nine to five type of space or a third space or whatever that workplace is.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:02:28,660 ] The Baseline fact is that hybrid is the rule. You’re exactly right, Frank. We’re not going anywhere five days a week.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:02:39,460 ] To the same place nine to five all day every day. There may be a few people that are still doing that in in the kind of the corners of their industry. But typically research is even showing that. Those that are are unhappy or those KPIs that they’re being measured against, our incorrect it’s badge swipes, antiquated.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:02:59,610 ] Yes, absolutely.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:03:02,090 ] It’s um, antiquated is a great word for it, and and if you’re if you’re measuring badge swipes, then are you actually measuring what people are coming in to do? Absolutely not. There’s no basis of productivity to that. There’s no basis of of engagement to that. And so we are seeing. This push towards design.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:03:25,550 ] Being an experiential human. Focused.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:03:30,330 ] Design. Because. The workplace has to be a space that people are are wanting to drive to. It’s got to earn the commute. It’s got to earn that.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:03:44,920 ] The employees that are coming to sit in this space. And if it’s just paint and furniture. We’ve missed the mark, right? We’ve missed the mark. And people are already used to that idea of ‘quote unquote’ amenities. I think we’re past that too. A space can’t thrive on a snack basket alone.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:04:04,310 ] You know. No, I think people are way, way past that and almost look at it as if what a silly thing we did back then.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:04:14,420 ] I think you’re right.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:04:15,940 ] Uh, overall, we need break rooms and such, but you know— the purpose I worked with a company back in Eight and Nineties. Uh, mid, mid, mid, late 90s, that built every amenity possible and the whole purpose was to keep the employees on site for extra four hours a day.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:04:37,830 ] To grind more productivity out of them. Was an absolute failure, by the way. It had to be.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:04:43,150 ] They were burnt out.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:04:44,560 ] But it was the wrong way to do it. All their purpose for doing it was entirely wrong. Overall. But in hybrid, let’s define hybrid work a little bit and give everybody so that they know what we’re talking about here. Um, in my definition, uh, it’s simply the ability to work in multiple places on chosen days, usually in a structure that is recognized, so that you can coordinate with others. It can’t just be, well, I’m going to be in Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday this week and next week, I’ll be on I don’t know Tuesday and Wednesday and Friday, you know, it has to be coordinated with others. Hybrid work, the other place that people are working from is their home. Or a third workplace. Yes. And a third workplace in my world would be a business or a coworking or a shared office center.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:05:40,580 ] Absolutely.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:05:41,240 ] The ideal third workplace, because. Multiple people from the same company group or team can work in the same third workplace in a coordinated fashion. Oh, on Fridays, we all work in this third workplace and we have our X meeting. It’s closer to our homes than it is to our office.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:01,700 ] That’s my, my approach. The other thing I’ll mention again is: I’m setting rules here. Sorry, uh. Is a war on talent.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:12,930 ] Um, That started effectively in about 2016. And.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:19,850 ] In 2016, the large HR companies that we talked to then and still talk to today say that, if you were trying to hire a senior position, particularly in technology, and you didn’t have a flexible workplace plan, you would not be able to get the best people.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:37,990 ] So the pandemic was not the instigator for hybrid work.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:45,810 ] That was the foot that kicked everybody in the butt and through the door to at least temporarily.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:53,960 ] But it had already started, it had already become a mainstream issue.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:06:58,660 ] In about 2016 or so. And it was based on the war for talent. And I think that’s still a big element today.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:07:07,190 ] In what we’re talking about as flexible workspace strategies.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:07:11,150 ] Definitely. Yow! Part of the research I’ve been doing lately points directly to that. And I think this is so interesting. We’re really finding that the war on talent is really a war for providing autonomy. So these employees are wanting, needing, and, dare I say, choice. They aren’t going to stay because of snacks and there some are not even willing to stay for salary.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:07:46,230 ] Correct.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:07:46,760 ] Research is saying that they believe 53% actually.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:07:52,330 ] Again, WorkTech Academy, another report. From them, the state of the workplace in 2026 says that more than half of employees, 53%, would consider leaving a job due to poor workplace experience.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:08:05,520 ] And to me, that experience comes back. Two. Autonomy. Choice when I go in, I can find the place that works for the work I need to do today.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:08:17,820 ] Frank and I are going to have a meeting. I need to find a small space where we can step aside and get some work done. On Wednesday I’m going to go in and I need to meet with my team. I need a large space.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:08:28,120 ] And I need to know that all of the different types of spaces—those that will allow me to be productive.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:08:35,270 ] And to meet with my team and enjoy the culture of the company I work for and believe in— are all in that physical space I’m arriving to, or it’s not worth going.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:08:47,410 ] No, I think that’s right. The challenge in the space design at that point, there are two issues that I think are coming up. The challenge in the space design itself is how do you have bix flexibility.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:09:00,100 ] Hmm.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:09:01,430 ] little oxymoron there. But how do you do that so everybody can always be flexible? and yet you still have fixed resources that are efficient. The only way to do. in a perfect world for flexibility is to have excess resources.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:09:19,050 ] um but the companies can’t afford to do that generally so that that’s one design challenge. The other challenge I think is not a design challenge but you have a lot of companies today.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:09:31,420 ] Our culture is so great.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:09:34,420 ] or so strong. Everybody really wants to come to the office, so we’re going to make that our rule. And. Can cultures be that strong in a company where people really want to commute an hour on a train with a bunch of strangers in order to get to the office? Or do you think that that’s a fallacy?
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:09:52,860 ] Gosh, that’s such a great question, Frank.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:09:56,040 ] I think it can be. real. I think that that can be real. Do you think it’s real?
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:10:03,660 ] Mmm.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:10:06,940 ] I’d say four days a week. It’s real.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:10:08,620 ] I think that four days a week. Okay.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:10:10,960 ] I’ll go as far as four days a week. I think. It’s got to be an incredible culture, a little bit of a unicorn if you are voluntarily going in five days a week.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:10:23,560 ] Or you live in a really sucky, awful place that’s exactly right— or the office is about three steps from your front door and the commute is a non-issue, but other than that, I think Four days a week.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:10:35,560 ] In major markets, the average commute is 45 minutes.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:10:40,130 ] Okay. And the great majority of all people live in those major markets. So a door to door, it’s 45 minutes. So you’re taking an hour and a half a day— or three hours a week— out of your personal time in order to make a two-day commute.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:10:57,880 ] Um.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:11:00,730 ] That’s a big commitment. It’s also the expense of the commute. Um, uh, and the expense oftentimes of small errands being run downtown or in New York City as opposed to out on Long Island or up in Connecticut, where so things are more expensive.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:11:18,780 ] Right.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:11:19,260 ] So there’s a definitive expense to going to the office.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:11:24,530 ] Um, I don’t know, from a design point of view, how there’s nothing you can do about that, but from a point of view— creating that perfect workplace— how do you think that should be handled? Or do you? Do you think it’s just embedded in the employee’s decision?
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:11:40,950 ] You know, I I think I would have at one point said, I do think it’s embedded in the employee’s decision. I think, I don’t know. You want to call it naivete or ignorance or or what, but I think at some point I would have said.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:11:57,300 ] Well, of course they’re going to want to go in. They’ve got great people they work with and a really good culture. Um, why wouldn’t you want to be with people? And.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:12:07,700 ] COVID hit my world with a newborn and a three-year-old at home. And. I think that, pretty much, that’s all I need to say about that, that shattered all of my beliefs on You just go in because you want to.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:12:23,590 ] Because the truth is.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:12:25,670 ] Life is crazy for everybody. And once that. What I believe the flex world has known for a very long time, but the traditional work world has been slower to adopt is the truth. of the fact that Our human lives are made up of so much more. than that. work portion of our lives.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:12:47,810 ] And so it can’t just be.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:12:51,420 ] An internal desire to go into work when the other factors that are at play when children, errands, like you said.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:13:02,410 ] Aging parents, you know, coming to live. There’s so many countless things that could be going on in someone’s life. That are going to override. Eventually, that I go in because I like the office and I like the people I work with. In my world. That goes back to the designer and we say, ‘Okay, what are you going to do to make those people who have a million things going on. Come in at least three days a week and be excited about it.’ And we get into that.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:13:32,640 ] A really human-centered design.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:13:35,090 ] Yeah, I think so.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:13:39,290 ] I used to travel an awful lot and travel is exhausting. And I was traveling for business generally.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:13:46,250 ] And I know when I went in. into certain hotels.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:13:51,270 ] I would go.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:13:53,150 ] I’m here.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:13:54,720 ] And I went into other places, I’d be on edge.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:13:57,990 ] And they could both be— the same caliber of quality of facility.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:14:03,760 ] Um, overall, but one place would make me edgy and another place would help me relax. And I think that when you talk about the workplace, you talk about it— for more than three days. Heck, my dog doesn’t even like to see me for more than three days.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:14:19,660 ] Um, No, when you talk about spending, being excited to go to the workplace generally, you’re excited because of not people, candidly. People are nice, but everybody’s got their lives, as you say. But. quality of work that you do, the challenges from the work itself.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:14:39,990 ] Yes.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:14:40,470 ] And being in the office.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:14:43,710 ] helps you meet those challenges.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:14:46,810 ] uh overall um But we also know that intensity dulls the blade, so to speak. And so people need change. in order to be at their best And I think that that’s one of the elements that hybrid work brings, is you’ve got three or four phases within which your brain and your socialization and your needs can all be met.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:15:14,460 ] that if you do one thing one way, one time, every time. um As they say, all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:15:24,590 ] Yes.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:15:25,410 ] And I think that that comes to it. We need variety to be stimulating.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:15:32,540 ] I think designers, in this current landscape, are really juggling a lot of factors because I believe everything. I fully believe everything you just said and think that.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:15:46,990 ] You need, when you think about this real estate portfolio, however many square feet, this designer has been tasked with designing for culture and productivity and engagement.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:16:00,640 ] Attendance, attraction, and retention, all of these things that are on paper, of this real estate portfolio and what they’re tasked to do. They have to do that. But be mindful of those. I love the hotel analogy you gave because I also travel a lot for work and that’s a very accurate description. Some hotels, I just— It’s been, it’s a lot. Traveling is a lot. Airports are crazy. There’s people everywhere. I want to just— And if the environment is loud and edgy, then that’s going to be really hard for me personally. Other people may be fueled by that. So these designers need to keep in mind— the neurodiversity of everyone who comes into a space. We have some who crave calm and quiet, we have others who crave who crave loud and and energetic.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:16:50,810 ] We also have a myriad of ways that people need to work in order to be productive while they’re there. So I think for a while we were really focused on The quote unquote. You know, Zoom room.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:17:05,179 ] And I think that we’ve got to have one of those. I think, praise the Lord, we’ve moved a little bit past the specificity of that.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:17:15,819 ] I find that more designers are trying to find a way to multipurpose.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:17:21,180 ] As much square footage as they possibly can. So that that employee can come in and have a little bit of I mean, going back to that word autonomy. To create the space that they need that day. It could be a Zoom room, but it might also not be a Zoom room. It may be a space for in-person collaboration. But you need to. So they’re designing for this neurodiverse population. They’re dealing with Loudon. environments and soft environments and then large people spaces and one person spaces. quiet and and it’s a lot. I think that they have a lot on their plate right now. I think it’s a very tough.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:18:02,310 ] Ask.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:18:03,450 ] Well, do you think that office design. use the way we’re doing it is.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:18:10,640 ] you For a long time, it wasn’t in a state of flux for a long time it was not in a state of like you went to the office you sat at your desk your desk was an open space desk it was in a cube it was in a private office Didn’t matter what it was. That was your spot. That was your space. That’s where you were.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:18:30,340 ] That’s right. No choice involved.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:18:31,760 ] Well, you didn’t float around except I have a meeting in the boardroom. Okay, you didn’t float around a lot. Today we’re floating around a lot, but that’s. we don’t know what tomorrow’s going to be. And I’ll use a good example. What’s AI going to do to space design? Well, let’s see.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:18:49,240 ] My team right now consists of two AI agents. My personal team consists of two AI agents and one executive assistant.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:19:08,390 ] There you go.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:19:09,440 ] Okay, so how is that going to change, or is it? Does it really matter? Are we in a permanent beta test? If you will, for space use that is just going to continually evolve, hopefully on a progressive basis and not a chaotic basis.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:19:27,610 ] Sure.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:19:28,720 ] But.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:19:30,060 ] There’s an amazing quote from a director of workplace experience at Jones Lang LaSalle, who I was introduced to at a WorkX event last year. And I’m not a quote memorizer, if that’s even a phrase.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:19:45,490 ] Who is the person?
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:19:47,540 ] Her name is Lauren Hasson.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:19:49,800 ] I know her. Do you? Okay. Okay.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:19:54,150 ] This quote has one that has really stuck with me. And she she talks explicitly about this question that you just asked, frank about AI.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:20:02,310 ] And I loved her answer because.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:20:05,090 ] The truth is, we all know, I mean, I have ChatGPT up on my computer 100% of the time, always. It’s a partner. It’s my partner in crime. I named it Chuck.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:20:14,860 ] You know, you can name yours whatever you’d like to name it, but mine is Chuck. And Chuck and I spend a lot of time together during the day. We write articles together. We draft emails together. and And the truth is that AI will continue to become a larger and larger part of the work that we do. And Lauren mentioned during this panel discussion of AI in the workplace that The fact is, we obviously do not know what the future holds, but we do know that AI agents will continue to be a larger part of the work that we do.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:20:45,050 ] Right.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:20:45,470 ] And we must design spaces with flexibility and adaptability in mind so that when AI changes the work we do.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:20:56,910 ] Six months from now, 12 months from now. Three weeks from now. We can pivot. And remain productive.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:21:05,790 ] And engaged in the work we’re doing. Although that may look different from month to month. And I thought that was such a spectacular answer, especially as a director of workplace.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:21:18,070 ] We see so much.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:21:20,420 ] Product that has this capability to be more than one thing. And I think that will become increasingly necessary.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:21:28,720 ] As we partner with AI and don’t feel combative against it. We let it take the mundane tasks and we allow ourselves to be the creative humans that we are.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:21:38,800 ] You know, it’s funny. I agree with that. We actually jokingly said the other day, we have a meeting, we have this meeting coming. I said, okay, and everybody bring their agent with them.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:21:51,010 ] Okay, because everybody has a, we call them an angel on their shoulder.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:21:54,360 ] I love it. BYOA.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:21:56,610 ] Bring your agents with you. But the other thing that we’ve noticed is, in certain groups, primarily the in ourselves, tech and design. uh groups uh God bless. Oh. that the noise level’s gone up. mm-hmm People are talking to themselves. No, they’re talking to their agent.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:22:19,360 ] They’re carrying on a normal conversation.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:22:22,590 ] They normally would have been keyboarding, but now they’re carrying on a conversation. So we’ve noticed that the sound has changed in certain departments, in certain groups. Not bad.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:22:33,790 ] But. Everybody’s talking to themselves, so to speak. Um and that is required. We actually took some more space and separated a group because of that. We said we’re gonna go over to this this area now because it was a requirement of this change. I don’t know how we went down this rabbit hole.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:22:58,050 ] But these things are interesting. They’re the way we’re going to continue to evolve in the future of work. Um, or the future of the workplace in particular, and I guess what I’m asking is how important is place anymore, really, to the future of work? Is it really important still? Or can we all fake it till we make it, and not worry about places much anymore, and just worry about these other processes?
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:23:28,050 ] Right.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:23:29,400 ] I have to believe that place is incredibly important.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:23:34,690 ] And crucial to an organization, even if that place is a third space where an organization is utilizing a a number of co-working locations across the country for their members to access. You’ve got that kind of hub and spoke model, or I have to believe that the physical space is.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:23:59,550 ] is crucial. I think that when done right, that space can be where people feel a part of the same goal. and they can feel a part of that shared mission. And I believe that while you can have that. without physical place.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:24:20,850 ] I find that When I’m in my home office, it’s easier for me to be about me. It’s easier for me to have the the way I organize my day to be more based on my own personal schedule or my own personal needs and when I’m in the office with my team. the culture. and the organization and the shared. goals just tend to kind of fill me up more and drive the work I’m doing in a different way. I think that we have to have both.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:24:51,210 ] think we have to be able to have both.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:24:53,370 ] My mind just went way out in another tangent on this, but when you think about place— the importance of place and bringing people together to basically focus on the same goal, the focus on the same communal effort.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:25:13,100 ] The first thing that came to my mind was a grand cathedral. Oh, I love that. Okay.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:25:20,040 ] As a place, a physical place designed specifically and singularly for that one thing. Bring people together for a fixed period of time in order to commune with whatever their thoughts are.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:25:37,360 ] Right. Something about not being alone. Being with others and sharing that experience.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:25:43,670 ] You know, so design hasn’t changed a lot in that particular place, by the way.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:25:49,980 ] No, it has not. Maybe because its purpose is so pure.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:25:54,710 ] Oh, I love that.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:25:55,750 ] So simple. Um, um, uh. Overall, and you know, so I’m just not sure.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:26:03,430 ] When we talk about place hybrid, we talk about commutes a little bit.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:26:09,080 ] Do people have to earn commutes?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:26:12,140 ] Do people have to earn a right to be a hybrid worker or should everybody automatically be a hybrid worker and then be judged based on their productivity from the get-go?
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:26:24,840 ] Right.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:26:26,350 ] I would say option B in that scenario. I think.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:26:31,710 ] I think, as humans, it really should be non-negotiable at this point to have some type of hybrid allowance. You should be able to work. from work and then work from work, from home, or work from your third place or your favorite coffee shop. I think that that blend is really.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:26:48,180 ] Well, let me interrupt something. Sure. Let’s assume that we agree on the concept. What about the technology?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:26:56,370 ] Okay.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:26:58,780 ] You work in a nice home with a nice office and you’ve got nice bandwidth and plenty of room for multiple screens.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:27:07,150 ] A podcast setup, et cetera. Uh, the co-worker who just joined the company at a more junior position lives in a small apartment with two roommates.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:27:18,470 ] Mmm.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:27:19,470 ] Okay. And so the environment of working from home.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:27:25,800 ] And then you say, well, send them to a third workplace. Oh, cost differentiator.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:27:30,250 ] Right.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:27:31,180 ] Okay, so. Um, earning that right, I’m going to go back to proving the capability to be productive.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:27:40,060 ] In the workplace, the fixed workplace, earns the right to be productive. Or to improve your productivity in the hybrid place. I think that’s a pretty common issue. And because there are unquestionably more costs to an employer by having a hybrid workplace.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:28:07,110 ] And there are more costs to the employee by going to the office.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:28:11,560 ] Yes.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:28:13,170 ] So how do you rationalize that back and forth?
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:28:16,440 ] Gosh, that’s that’s a tough I know.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:28:19,520 ] I’m kind of in a tough mood today.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:28:22,750 ] I like it. I like it. Because I think it’s worth kind of grappling with. I mean, you’re right. You’ve got, for an employee like you or me, we’ve got our home office set up. We know. We’ve got all the equipment we need. We’ve got strong Wi-Fi, like you said.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:28:39,930 ] Kids are. Elsewhere, it’s a quiet environment. I can get my work done. There are quite a few people who that’s not the norm.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:28:46,800 ] Exactly.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:28:47,400 ] And it would feel difficult as a leader to say, ‘Sally Sue cannot work from home. Her background is unprofessional. Her Wi-Fi is spotty. But Joe Schmo can work from home because we like. Way I mean, you can’t you can’t you can’t do that.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:29:03,410 ] You can’t pick and choose.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:29:06,740 ] But you have to. You do. I think that goes back to the proving. I think you maybe changed my answer.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:29:12,410 ] Yes, if the role, the remote work role, is in a customer-facing position.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:29:17,860 ] Structure.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:29:19,940 ] You have to have certain. Um, Well, we have a little thing in here, our internal branding. Structure for ourselves that says absolutely alliance.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:29:31,890 ] Hmm.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:29:32,560 ] Where everything is absolutely alliance, okay. Um, uh, don’t read a different company. And a lot of companies have that concept. It’s not unique to us.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:29:44,190 ] Right.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:29:44,750 ] So how do you rectify that with the hybrid work structure?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:29:50,640 ] Customer-facing individuals that want to work from home, forget the cost differential. Sure. How do you manage that?
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:30:00,170 ] I think this is where the flex world steps in in a big way.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:30:07,120 ] As I think that each organization would have to take a look at.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:30:12,910 ] And I’m thinking organization.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:30:14,850 ] More like an enterprise size location in this particular scenario. I’m thinking enterprise level organization.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:30:23,440 ] They should reconsider if they if they don’t have enough employees.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:30:28,220 ] Who can either make it in on a regular basis, but you’ve got the home issue that’s maybe not reliable.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:30:34,540 ] I think in that point, you need to second guess the size of your square footage and possibly look at utilizing third space as that at home model for those who need. And you offload a little bit of the square footage you lease or own and you. put that capital towards.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:30:54,560 ] Maybe a co-working well, you just said something. It’s interesting and I would agree with that concept. Uh, by the way, um. If you go hybrid, and you go to a 3-2 work week. Sure, you’ve basically created a functional 40% vacancy factor in your own space. You can offload 30% of that.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:31:20,010 ] Okay, you still have to keep a little bit of an extra surplus. Um, so you offload that. Well, that comes out most spaces either purchased or leased in either case, lease is considered debt in your balance sheet. So you’ve got one, five, seven, ten years of debt leasehold debt in your balance sheet. And if you remove 30% of your debt from your balance sheet that relates to that space, that does that freeze up capital.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:31:52,560 ] Because your balance sheet’s better and now your borrowing ratios are better. etc etc so that frees up capital which more than offsets the expense because it’s not a capital issue of third workplace.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:32:06,390 ] Right.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:32:07,170 ] You can, you definitely can manage that. Um, if you can’t, you need a new CFO.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:32:15,200 ] I would, I would, I’d say Yes, I agree with that. I think that the model is maybe new to a lot of enterprise leadership. I think it that that kind of we’ve got real estate and then we’ve got this up portion of our annual budget that goes to a third space that may feel like you’re losing control a little bit, but I think it’s the opposite. I think you’re gaining.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:32:44,050 ] Employees who kind of going back to that earning. the trust. Talent acquisition. They’re wanting to know that you are pouring into their quality of life. And Gen Z and Alpha behind it are certainly experience driven.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:33:04,040 ] People they so that that that good experience that’s being provided is going to far outweigh that discomfort of something kind of human. Well, they don’t have experience.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:33:14,750 ] AI is going to take all their jobs anyway, so what do we care?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:33:18,840 ] No, it’s a terrible thing to say. I apologize to the world for saying that. But. The um.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:33:28,000 ] No, it is true. As we face these dilemmas or these opportunities, however, you want to look at it.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:33:35,410 ] Continuously improving the workplace experience, so that’s where I look about it, or the future of work experience overall.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:33:44,420 ] We have new tools and technology, AI. We have new design concepts that create the physical environment. We have to migrate our management concepts, etc.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:33:57,260 ] The one exception to not exception, but the one element I want to add to your saying is: you said, ‘well, for enterprise.’ Great. I think enterprise-grade clients actually have, or companies actually have, an easier time with managing this, even though they’re massive, scale, and this and that. They have the resources to sit down and say, ‘Well, what’s a better way short-term and long-term for us to operate?’
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:34:24,790 ] Right.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:34:27,230 ] 70 of the people in the United States at least don’t work for enterprise or government.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:34:34,030 ] They work for small to medium science companies. So does a five-person employer have this? It’s a 10-person, a 20-person, let’s say, people up to 100 employees. Do they have the same, they have the same challenges?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:34:50,639 ] They want the same caliber of person.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:34:54,550 ] Are they solving it in the same ways or are they solving it at all?
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:35:00,480 ] I think it becomes in that situation.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:35:04,660 ] You have to protect.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:35:06,840 ] You, being the the business owner small business owner you have to protect the culture of the company and going back to that kind of shared goal. We’re all in this together.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:35:19,440 ] and And that becomes an individual.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:35:23,820 ] How are we going to?
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:35:26,940 ] I think about I think about companies. Um, that I’ve seen kind of. start in this co-working model and grow and they face something like this, right? They’re used to kind of being in this incubator space together and they’re just up all night eating pizza. You’ve got this like shared experience that’s wonderful. But as they get bigger and bigger, they either have to move into larger space or can they afford that? Maybe not. So now people are working from home and they’re joining virtually, and then you’ve got some people still at the co-working space and then some people that have started an office in another state.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:35:59,560 ] Just as an FYI, numbers-wise, the average max move-out size for a company that goes through that gestation period is nine employees.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:36:09,700 ] Wow.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:36:11,120 ] That’s about nine. They can no longer justify the differential in cost, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It becomes a. a different choice at that point.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:36:23,300 ] Right.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:36:24,650 ] That they make or that they have to make.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:36:29,090 ] Yeah, that makes sense. It would be much more than that. It would be pretty difficult to find Yeah. a suite or a space for that.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:36:36,120 ] Yeah.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:36:36,660 ] And and to be able to be productive in it, I mean, yeah, I think that becomes a struggle because the growth model says we need more heads.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:36:47,520 ] Doing whatever it is that we do.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:36:49,840 ] Exactly.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:36:50,790 ] And how are we going to serve?
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:36:53,690 ] Those people and that our culture remains the through line.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:36:58,030 ] And I definitely still believe that place is a huge part of that. But I think the future of work really does look like a billion different solutions for that because it definitely sees an increase in flex space, undoubtedly, in my opinion. I mean, I don’t I don’t really see how.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:37:20,460 ] Companies can continue to provide the experience and the autonomy.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:37:26,460 ] That employees are begging for without tapping into what a third space offers.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:37:33,600 ] But man, those small organizations are up against it, aren’t they?
Frank Cottle
[ 00:37:36,710 ] You know, back in the late 80s, remember I’m an old guy, so back in the late 80s and early 90s in the flex space world, the largest single flex space operator in the United States was not a flex space operator, it was a corporation, it was MCI.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:37:55,320 ] Hmm.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:37:56,100 ] They set up all of their facilities and emulated what were then called executive suites or business centers. Sure. All of their facilities and had the logging capability, they’re kind of a techie company, had the logging capability to manage the traffic flows.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:38:16,010 ] And you had two or three flex space facility options depending on where you lived and what your time was. So corporations can do this themselves.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:38:29,490 ] Microsoft has a uh its own flex space program they don’t have a lot of facilities only about 25 or 30 where they have their own what you’d think of as third-party facilities.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:38:43,430 ] Um, Um.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:38:45,720 ] Costco has a few.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:38:49,090 ] Walmart has a few.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:38:50,790 ] Hmm.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:38:51,390 ] Um of their own for people coming and going for different jobs, so this can be solved at the corporate level, overall, and certainly being solved at the entrepreneurial level by the serviced office and co-working sectors in the industry. In the US, they represent about 3%, 4% of all commercial office space now. My. guesstimate is the people are saying it’ll be 20%. It’s got to get to be 5% or 10% first. But it is growing. It is the fastest growing. The FlexSpace operators are the fastest growing in it. category. in commercial real estate right now.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:39:37,080 ] So that’s kind of an interesting.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:39:40,030 ] spot to say, oh, it’s not tech companies, it’s flex space operators.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:39:45,820 ] Okay, as more and more people go towards that market.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:39:49,850 ] I can surprise me. That number really doesn’t surprise me very much.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:39:55,150 ] We’re running. Long on time here, which is good because I’m really grateful to you for your thoughts. I’m going to stop with one of your quotes.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:40:04,900 ] Mmm.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:40:06,080 ] That not designing for change is a risk to the bottom line.
SPEAKER_3
[ 00:40:10,320 ] Thank you.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:40:10,990 ] Everything that we have to do has to consider change and designing for that purposefully. is an element, whether you’re a five-person company or a 500,000-person company.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:40:24,380 ] Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:40:29,170 ] Well, thank you, Leslie. Really appreciated your time today. And I’ve always enjoyed talking to you and I look forward to the next time.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:40:36,270 ] Thank you so much, Frank, you as well. And next time we’ll flip the microphone and I’ll get to ask you all the good questions.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:40:42,830 ] Hey, I’m up for it. I’m up for it.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:40:46,030 ] Take care.
Wesley Edmonds
[ 00:40:46,430 ] Thanks so much, Frank.
Frank Cottle
[ 00:40:47,730 ] Bye-bye.
