About This Episode
In this episode of The Future of Work® Podcast, host Daniel Lamadrid speaks with Melissa Doman, MA, an organizational psychologist, former mental health therapist, author, and founder of The Workplace Mental Health Method™. Melissa brings deep expertise from her work with global companies including Google, Microsoft, Salesforce, Siemens, Dow Jones, Estée Lauder, and more.
The conversation explores why leaders are often expected to support everyone else’s mental health while their own emotional toll goes unaddressed. Melissa explains how workplace mental health conversations can become more effective, appropriate, and practical, especially as organizations navigate remote work, loneliness, flexibility, communication challenges, and rising pressure on leaders. For listeners, this episode offers a grounded look at how companies can support human functioning, healthier leadership, and stronger workplace cultures in the future of work.
About Melissa Doman
Melissa Doman, MA is an Organizational Psychologist, Former Mental Health Therapist, Author of Cornered Office: Why We Need To Talk About Leadership Mental Health and Yes, You Can Talk About Mental Health at Work (Here’s Why And How To Do It Really Well), and Founder of The Workplace Mental Health Method™. Melissa works with companies across industries around the globe — including clients like Google, Progressive, Dow Jones, the Orlando City Soccer Club, Microsoft, Salesforce, Siemens, Estée Lauder, & Janssen. She’s spoken at SXSW, has been featured as a subject matter expert in CNN, Vogue, NPR, Fast Company, the BBC, CNBC, Inc., and in LinkedIn’s 2022 Top 10 Voices on Mental Health. Having lived abroad in South Korea, England, Australia and traveled to nearly 50 countries, Melissa calls upon her global experiences to inform how she works with companies worldwide. She has one core goal: to equip companies, individuals, and leaders to have constructive conversations about mental health, team dynamics, and communication in the workplace. Her work and book aim to accomplish just that. To learn more about Melissa, her work, or her books — please visit www.melissadoman.com.
What You’ll Learn
- Why leadership mental health is often overlooked inside workplace mental health strategies.
- How leaders can support their teams without acting as therapists.
- Why mental health at work should be connected to functioning, communication, and performance.
- How company culture affects whether employees feel able to talk about mental health.
- Why flexibility can influence mental health differently depending on the person.
- How remote work, loneliness, and coworking spaces connect to the future of work.
- Why leaders need better language, boundaries, and permission to discuss mental health.
- How organizations can make mental health conversations more practical and less ambiguous.
Transcript
Melissa Doman
[ 00:00:00,000 ]There are trillions of dollars lost globally to poor mental health. Productivity goes down, morale goes down, ability to collaborate effectively goes down, the ability to innovate goes down, the ability to communicate effectively goes down.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:00:17,040 ] Melissa, welcome. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us. How are you doing today?
Melissa Doman
[ 00:00:23,430 ] I’m good. I’ve been looking forward to this. How are you?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:00:27,130 ] I’m doing good. I’m doing good. And I’m really excited about the conversation we’re going to have.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:00:32,009 ] We’re going to be talking about mental health and how it relates to leadership.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:00:37,470 ] And I mean, I’m honored to have you here on the podcast. You’ve worked with organizations, big organizations like Microsoft, Google, Salesforce.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:00:47,190 ] I want to ask right off the bat, like, what are you seeing right now as it comes to leadership and mental health in the workplace? Have you noticed any trends in the now?
Melissa Doman
[ 00:00:59,410 ] Well, I appreciate, you know, being here and I have a lot of respect as well for all workspace. So I’m, you know, we’re both excited to be here. Yeah. You know? I’ll be very honest when it comes to the mental health of leaders.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:01:15,330 ] Right now.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:01:17,000 ] With all the things going on globally, it is a bad moment for leadership.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:01:22,680 ] So some people say, like, oh, what a hell of a time to write a book about leadership, mental health. You know, are you worried? And I say, actually, no. I think this is even the better time to do it because we want to support the mental health of leaders, ideally. To create more leaders who engage in healthier leadership to make a positive impact, to counteract all the leaders doing really bad stuff out there in very, very big ways. And so what I’m seeing right now is I see a very dichotomous split. I see there are some organizations that that see what I’m talking about and they’re trying to help equip their leaders to navigate the emotional toll. And it is a toll. Of leadership.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:02:13,360 ] And they see how central they are to the ecosystem of a company. And then I see other organizations that still treat their leaders as symbols of stability and not humans with limits. And they will not change.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:02:30,450 ] So it’s very, very split. It’s a very hot button topic. And it really depends on— not not even just the the industry or the company, but sometimes the team. So I’m seeing.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:02:43,560 ] Quite the split, uh. And also, you know, some companies that still uh see leaders only as facilitators of facilitators of mental health initiatives and not recipients.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:02:56,792 ] Yeah, I mean, I mean I will second what you just said, because we’re also seeing that leadership or leaders themselves are being treated as like the bridge or the gateway to mental health for everyone else. But like, Mm hmm.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:03:14,830 ] And they are in a lot of ways.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:03:16,330 ] They are, yes.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:03:19,360 ] And I think a lot of what’s happening right now as well is that leaders are absorbing a lot of stress.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:03:27,840 ] I don’t know if you’ve seen this or not, but they sort of absorb stress so that they don’t receive it and so they’re this like sponge and this bridge and at the end of the day, like, where’s the mental health for them? You know, um.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:03:42,450 ] But I mean, I literally rage-wrote 75, 000 words about exactly that, and you know, especially, uh, chapter four there is in my in my newest book, ‘Cornered Office,’ there’s literally a section I’m not joking that says, ‘When the world burns, leaders burn,’ exactly about what you’re saying. Because, and again, This is not me trying to create any sort of like, you know, oh, pity for leadership stress or bad behavior, excuses for having bad behavior. Absolutely not. Not at all. This is just to humanize the people in those positions and basically say, if we want leaders to do what we are demanding of them, especially now. To not give them the skills and the permission to use those skills to manage the emotional toll of leadership is is illogical and it’s unsustainable. So I approach it very much from an irrefutable logic.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:04:45,710 ] perspective.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:04:47,580 ] Okay. I mean, that makes sense.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:04:50,680 ] Let’s see. I mean, In your perspective, Um, Both as a former therapist and organizational psychologist, I mean, you sort of already told us what you think companies are getting right, what they’re getting wrong, but you speak of bad behaviors. What do you mean? when you say bad behaviors, bad behaviors from leaders themselves, from the leaders of leaders? What do you mean regarding that?
Melissa Doman
[ 00:05:22,350 ] All of the above. All of the above. And I hear stories every day about really bad behavior in leadership. Now, the first thing that I tend to think when I hear about badly behaved leaders, you know, the first thing people tend to do is they get angry. or they get disappointed or some other big negative feeling, which is justified. Because when people in positions of power and influence lash out at those they lead or they behave badly. Power dynamics are real. The impact of leadership behavior on those they lead is Very, very, very significant. But my first reaction, I’m sure biased by what I do for a living, is I become curious. I go, I wonder why. There’s always a reason now, whether that is they’re putting a stress footprint on other people, where they just they combust and they put it towards others, or whether they’re just a bad apple. Or there are lots of different reasons, but the behaviors that I tend to see are again, like.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:06:28,490 ] Emotional outbursts. I also see a lack of emotional intelligence, whether it’s from lack of bandwidth or lack of desire.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:06:36,520 ] I tend to see a lack of transparency when it comes to being kind of an iron door about information. I also tend to see favoritism. I see lots of different things. And my first response is curiosity. It makes me wonder, in that position. When you would do that to people that you lead, I want to know why. Because I will not assume the reason. That’s where we tend to get into trouble. Is based on natural power dynamics. When people in charge start to act out, people don’t become curious— they become pissed off.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:07:12,590 ] And that’s a normal response. But if we keep continuing that cycle, we can’t do the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:07:23,280 ] I mean, before we move forward on this topic, how would you actually define leadership? Mental health? What does that mean? I personally feel that mental health became very popular, and then it, something else, becomes more popular and it replaces it and then it comes back again. This is just my opinion. It’s sort of losing its value. The actual word ‘mental health’ it can mean a lot of things, and because it can mean a lot of things, it doesn’t mean much. But I mean, you as the expert, how would you define what leadership mental health is?
Melissa Doman
[ 00:08:02,380 ] So I will come at this from a different angle.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:08:06,470 ] Okay.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:08:06,810 ] Now. Mental health literally has a definition. Medically. It is our baseline social, emotional, and cognitive functioning— not to be confused with mental well-being or mental wellness— when I think of those phrases. I’m like, ‘What the hell?’ ‘What the hell does that mean?’ That is so ambiguous. Like, what does that mean? So, as a former therapist, mental health to me is quite medical.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:08:34,620 ] And if you look at how it’s been warped.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:08:39,169 ] You’re completely right that mental health has so many different meanings because it’s so intensely personal and it can be a very sensitive topic. Now, when I’m talking about leadership mental health, I’m literally only talking about the emotional, cognitive, and social functioning of people in leadership.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:09:03,660 ] That’s it. Because they’re so dehumanized, we see them as the title, not as the human being with the title. So I am only talking about the emotional and cognitive, social and professional functioning of people in leadership.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:09:20,330 ] Because. More often than not, leaders are opening up about mental health to make other people feel comfortable to speak up.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:09:30,030 ] Yep.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:09:30,300 ] Not usually with the goal of humanizing themselves.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:09:34,710 ] So when I talk about leadership mental health, I’m literally talking about the same consideration of emotional functioning that we give to employees. Because leaders are also employees. They just have a leadership title and different salaries and different functions and purposes. I’m so concrete about it for the reason that you mentioned, because it is such a warped term.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:09:56,410 ] That I’m trying to bring people back down with logic and facts and definitions.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:10:01,690 ] And I think it’s amazing that you’re doing that because, yes, these days words seem to lack meaning.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:10:08,890 ] I don’t know— everyone just uh gives words what the meaning they want, but um yeah, we’re we’re living in a time of distortion of truth and um I’ll leave that there.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:10:24,199 ] Yes. Yeah. And to that, I’ll segue into the next thing. I also do believe that we’re becoming more and more sensitive as a workforce, as generations collide, and we’re becoming more sensitive. Though I believe, and I’d love your opinion on this, I believe there’s still a lot of stigma around mental health and discussing it amongst family members and even more so in the workplace. People still see that as a no-no. What do you believe that there’s still hesitation when it comes to speaking about mental health and for?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:11:08,210 ] Thank you. And leaders openly talking about mental health, either to their superiors, to their team members. What do you think that still is? Is it just stigma?
Melissa Doman
[ 00:11:18,450 ] So there are like six questions in there and I will need you to help put those down for me. So let’s start. Right. So, and actually speaking of sticking to true meaning, so I have ADHD, the real kind, not the self-diagnostic kind. Like diagnosed as a child. So I’ll need your help to go through each of those questions. So the first one. You know, the hesitancy to speak— you know, that really depends on on the person and what the context is where they live in the world. You know, there are reasons inside of work and outside of work why why people are hesitant to talk about mental health in the workplace. So let’s say, outside of work, this could be their culture of origin, country of origin, their gender identity, their religion, their sexual orientation, their family, all of these rules and permissions that shaped them. And how they should view mental health. Is it okay to talk about who can we talk about it to? What does it mean?
Melissa Doman
[ 00:12:19,250 ] All of these sorts of things. But then, when you go inside of a company, it depends on what is the culture around talking about emotional health and functioning. Is there psychological safety to do that? Are organizations weaponizing those conversations against people that talk about it? Are organizations not talking about it because they have legal concerns? Are they not talking about it because they don’t feel it’s generally appropriate? There are so many reasons.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:12:50,680 ] That companies are hesitant to talk about it. And employees and leaders are hesitant to talk about it, which is why, again, in all my work and both of my books that I talk about all of these contextual reasons, because we can’t just look at the topic by itself. We have to look at the conversations in the systems in which they exist.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:13:14,120 ] That’s what makes it a little more difficult in certain cases to talk about, whether it’s from the company, the employee, the leader, the industry, the team. Uh, intersectional identity— there are all these reasons that create comfort or not, permission or not, to talk about it in the workplace.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:13:34,260 ] I think the answer you just gave is amazing. Yes, it depends on the context of everyone’s lived experience in their countries.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:13:43,480 ] I love that you shared with me that you have ADHD.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:13:47,510 ] Thank you for that. I also.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:13:49,110 ] Oh yeah. It’s part of who I am.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:13:51,760 ] Um, and you know, I mean, they say that uh the neurodivergent will be those that thrive the most, especially more as we’re entering the AI area. I don’t know.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:14:01,760 ] I mean, that’s you know, AI aside, I don’t even have the blood pressure ability to talk about that today. But here’s what I will say. Uh, you know, for the longest time, and uh, I don’t, I don’t know how old you are, but I’m in my 40s. And for the longest time, you know, being neurodivergent was seen as a deficit, and it has been since proven that that is just not true. It’s just a difference in brain type. So one of the benefits of being neurodivergent is we are fantastic at pattern recognition.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:14:40,090 ] We are very good at how we synthesize information. You know, there’s lots of different variations with the neurodivergence, you know, ADHD, ADHD, autism, all different kinds. And while there are absolutely challenges that come with being neurodivergent, absolutely, and there’s some days where I’m like, ‘God, this is annoying and frustrating but other days, like, ‘My ability to to be highly attuned.’ To people’s needs, thoughts, feelings, you know, recognizing patterns is something that I can do because I’m neurodivergent. But I also see it as my responsibility to tell people what my communication needs are, which is why I want to hear multiple questions.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:15:29,370 ] And then I ask for clarity.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:15:32,680 ] Yeah, I mean, definitely. And, you know, this reminds me of something that I’ll share with you recently happened with a colleague of mine.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:15:42,300 ] We openly did this. We, we, we shared um what uh were diagnosed with um the medications we might take or not. And since then it’s sort of opened this safe place where we can talk about it. And if we’re having issues with work or a project together, we know where we’re coming from. And I think this is what we’re talking about, right? Having these conversations about who we are outside of work, and I mean, let’s face it, we’re working two-thirds of our lives, right? I mean, this has got to be a place where we. we can communicate these things with others.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:16:19,180 ] Um, and to add to that, I completely agree. You know, there’s a small caveat I would say. You know, the way I tend to boil it down is that it is really tough out there, and very tough in here. So, for the amount of time that we work with each other, wouldn’t it be nice if we had shared language and conversational literacy, and the skills and permission? To talk about the challenges of as my sister says, the cost of doing business— which is just being alive— is not just about diagnoses or medication. You know, this is also about general mental health, life experiences, work experiences. And for people who, let’s say, are not comfortable— let’s say they do have a diagnosis that they don’t want to share— they don’t have to. They can just talk about, like, ‘Oh, sometimes I struggle with organizing information, or sometimes I get overwhelmed when I have too many tasks, or sometimes I have trouble concentrating. Where they share the behavioral difficulty or the cognitive difficulty without sharing the diagnosis.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:17:26,480 ] So we’re just trying to embed these sort of like non-clinical, relatable, experiential conversations.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:17:36,240 ] And, um, I think that that’s where a lot of organizations may get it wrong is they focus on just diagnoses. I’m like, it’s so much bigger than that. You know, we’re talking about all of it. And so that’s why I try to make it as simple and accessible as possible.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:17:53,360 ] and And in your experience, did you notice anything between larger, big-scale companies and sort of smaller ones?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:18:04,300 ] Uh, startups— if the discussions about mental health were enabled more in like smaller teams, smaller companies, rather than bigger ones, because of all these bureaucratic layers and liability, and did you ever notice something like that? A difference between company size or industry, maybe. I’m curious to know.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:18:27,210 ] You know what’s a valid question? It’s a very valid question. What I find really interesting about company size—it actually depends on the culture, not the company size. So there are some very small, small I’m talking like less than 50 people). They wouldn’t be caught dead talking about mental health. But then I have other clients who, let’s say, who are 500 people and they talk about it very openly because that’s the culture they’ve built. Now, when we talk about industry, that is very influential. So let’s say, for example, and I, I wrote about this in chapter five in my second book about the challenges in specific industries. So for example, I have found in my research that, generally speaking, in industries, we are kind of going in an uphill battle.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:19:28,910 ] To talk about mental health in, for example, manufacturing, construction, and contracting, but then on the other side of the spectrum, in the and the older term we’re not really supposed to use anymore is white collar versus blue collar. And the new names are escaping me of what to use. In industries where you need a license.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:19:50,140 ] To provide services to other humans, law, medicine, finance, you are also not so likely to see conversations because people get worried they will be seen as unfit to practice.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:20:04,380 ] Yes, if they talk about their concerns, but then, for example, let’s say the technology industry. There are some companies who are amazing at talking about mental health. There are other ones that are big no-no. Uh, same go. Yeah, there are lots of like little exceptions, but you tend to see certain industries where the conversation is much more of an uphill battle, based on long-term industry cultural norms of how we behave, don’t behave, etc. Um, but again, there’s always exceptions depending on the industry.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:20:39,500 ] And I mean, I think.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:20:41,460 ] We’ve sort of seen that as well in the industries that you were referring to. Tech specifically, it’s talk about mental health or opening up or being vulnerable that’s seen like a weakness, right? And they actually— I’m not going to generalize the entire industry, but they do promote overworking, no sleep, you know. And that definitely impacts mental health as well.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:21:07,220 ] So yeah, and yeah, it’s it is, I would say.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:21:14,330 ] Hyperdrive is a norm. But then I’ve also seen some tech companies where they don’t fit that mold at all. And they are so supportive.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:21:24,600 ] We can’t generalize. Yeah, for sure.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:21:27,560 ] But, you know, it’s when we see general trends, you know, it’s OK to refer to them while, you know, explaining their exceptions.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:21:34,760 ] Exactly.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:21:36,400 ] But the way I look at it is.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:21:41,260 ] Mental health has always been important. Always. It’s just now been recognized for. It’s necessity.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:21:50,580 ] Yes.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:21:51,010 ] And there are some companies that, since the pandemic, have really embedded this as a core strategic priority, which is just more business. And there are other companies that have reverted right back and they checked the box. And unfortunately, you know, this is a very, very tough job climate. So when people used to be able to kind of vote with their feet and go to other companies that are doing the right thing, a lot of people don’t have that luxury right now. So they just they they deal with it because they have to pay their bills.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:22:29,300 ] So it’s a. It’s I see a lot of interesting behavior out there of um companies trying to do the right thing, they don’t know how, or companies who don’t care to do the right thing. And this is why I always say that the goal is to embed mental health as a core strategic you know, practice.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:22:53,690 ] In as many companies, as many industries as possible, while understanding we will never have 100% success rate because that’s not how humanity functions.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:23:03,410 ] Correct. Yes. Very nicely put. And this is an amazing segue into, yes, a lot of companies are now incorporating this into their strategic efforts because, I mean, I believe they’re seeing that.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:23:18,880 ] It’s um Well, this is actually the question I want to ask you is what are the like real measurable consequences of not having these conversations?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:23:29,560 ] applying strategy for programs. I mean, I think more like you’re saying right now, more and more companies are seeing that. it impacts results, right? It impacts productivity and engagement and turnover. And so they’re starting to see that a little bit more.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:23:48,360 ] What are your thoughts on that?
Melissa Doman
[ 00:23:50,390 ] Gosh, I think the question is: what are not the consequences. The thing is that there has been study after study after study after study showing that when you don’t support the mental health and functioning of a workforce, that there is no limit to what that impacts.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:24:15,820 ] Obviously, it impacts the bottom line. There are trillions of dollars lost globally to poor mental health.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:24:24,100 ] Productivity goes down, morale goes down, ability to collaborate effectively goes down, the ability to innovate goes down, the ability to communicate effectively goes down. Uh, feeling motivation for your job, you know, all of these things are impacted because this organ.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:24:43,970 ] And it’s just an organ, but it’s a very important one. So, if we don’t focus on the maintenance of this organ that governs who we are, how we act, how we feel, how we relate to our environment. What do we think is going to happen? When every company, with the exception of roles that are given away to AI, and that’s all I’m going to say today.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:25:05,670 ] Every role is staffed by a human being. So, if you’re not going to focus on literally just the maintenance of this organ. It’s not about wellness and positive and rainbows and puppies, even though we love all those things.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:25:21,480 ] It’s not about that. It’s just about freaking maintenance. What do you expect is going to happen?
Melissa Doman
[ 00:25:27,770 ] That’s the way I look at it— irrefutable logic and data.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:25:31,800 ] Yeah, I think that’s an amazing way to look at it.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:25:35,790 ] I get very fiery. I apologize. No, no, no, no.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:25:38,870 ] I mean, this is, I think it’s an important conversation to have. And I think, I mean, we’ve been saying it in the 20 minutes that we’ve been speaking. I think it’s open to understand.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:25:51,330 ] Important to understand how we’re willing to communicate, in this case, you and I. And I think we’ve established that. And now let’s put it into like. Actionable steps, um, because we’ve been talking about communicating it, and it depends on the culture.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:07,000 ] Hmm, hmm.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:08,640 ] For leaders listening out there right now.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:12,120 ] And from your experience, and what you’ve seen, big companies, not big, small.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:18,600 ] Is there a way?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:20,610 ] Is there a safe way? Let’s use the word ‘safe.’ Is there a safe way? For leaders.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:27,510 ] Or non-leaders to open up about mental health?
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:31,460 ] To the other.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:33,670 ] Is there a wrong way and a right way? What would you say to that? Because I think that’s where people, that’s the beginning struggle.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:26:40,230 ] The first step, you know, like ‘How?’
Melissa Doman
[ 00:26:42,620 ] Yeah.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:26:44,660 ] So the term I would use is effective.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:26:49,480 ] Not safe or unsafe.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:26:51,630 ] I would say effective and appropriate.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:26:56,500 ] So first of all, I want to be very clear. There are some companies and some teams where it will never be safe to have this conversation. The first thing I say is: before you even try to talk about mental health, take a very honest look at the people you work with and the company you work with. Have you seen successful examples of people talking about emotional health? Have you seen when people talk about emotional health that they are retaliated against? Look at your environment. The environment will tell you whether or not it is actually psychologically safe. Hopefully, to have this conversation. The second thing, before you talk about mental health at all, and again, this doesn’t have to be a diagnosis.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:27:42,940 ] Uh, what are your rights as an employee in your country when you talk about mental health? You don’t get discriminated against. This is literally a reason that I partnered with an employment attorney. Uh, for example, in the United States, around the Americans with Disabilities Act, and knowing about protected characteristics, know your rights about how you share the implication of that, what your protections are. Yeah. If you’re actually going to share, you have to think about if I’m going to share about my mental health in the workplace, why do I want to do that? What are the key details I need to share? What is the purpose? Why am I sharing this information? What do I want people to do with this information? What do I plan to do with this information? Because a lot of companies where they get it wrong is they say mental health is important. raw and I go. You haven’t taught people how to say anything. You haven’t taught them how to tailor the conversation based on the audience.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:28:47,080 ] You haven’t tailored the wording to use that’s supposed to be effective, which is literally why I wrote the books. There are literal scripts and action plans and methods. of effective ways to talk about mental health and ineffective ways.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:29:04,360 ] to talk about mental health. So, as a chronologically aged adult, as long as you have access to mental health resources and can afford to use them. It is your responsibility.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:29:17,220 ] to manage your mental health. but also to let your organization know what your needs are while understanding.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:29:26,760 ] An organizational leader is not a therapist. It’s not a doctor. It’s not a case manager. However, organizations do have, and in certain countries, this is law.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:29:39,280 ] a duty of care. To their workforce to make sure that their mental health and physical health are are taken care of. That is not the case in the United States around mental health, but it is around physical health.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:29:53,790 ] But you really have to apply this. That is why I made these frameworks and methodologies, teaching people the words that are helpful to say for constructive conversations. Who to say it to? And on top of that, to understand the context and purpose of these conversations in relation to functioning and performance at work. Because you can’t expect.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:30:20,350 ] A company to take care of all your mental health needs is not the role of a company; it is a role to make sure it’s a healthy work environment to make sure you get access to resources. Of course. But there are certain conversations that are better suited for a therapist or a doctor and not a manager. So that’s what I would say is the audience— what you say. When you say it, how all of these things are are in the books, because you know. These are very ambiguous conversations that need to be made more concrete.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:30:55,350 ] I definitely agree. And specifically, right now, as we become more digital and we’re not going to touch on AI.
SPEAKER_2
[ 00:31:03,820 ] Yeah. Thank you. We won’t.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:31:09,260 ] I mean, I think there’s irrefutable evidence that we are currently ongoing a loneliness pandemic. It’s not official. We haven’t maybe put a name to it yet. I don’t know if you agree with this or not.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:31:22,970 ] The loneliness epidemic.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:31:24,830 ] Yes. Epidemic. Sorry. Yes. And there’s more.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:31:27,790 ] I was like, ‘No, not another pandemic.’
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:31:30,840 ] I think it’s the PTSD.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:31:33,620 ] And people are feeling more and more lonely.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:31:36,760 ] Yes, they are.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:31:37,830 ] I.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:31:39,360 ] Something I want to bring up is a lot of people are working remotely. I work remotely. Our entire company works remotely. I think it’s. a little bit more complicated to have these conversations when one is not in the same room with another maybe at least it can’t be sometimes.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:31:56,490 ] But something I really.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:32:00,520 ] I don’t know. I want to bring up is I want to bring up coworking spaces. I don’t know if you’ve ever worked in a coworking space.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:32:09,900 ] You know, I think coworking spaces right now are really championing in providing these third spaces— let’s call them for people that are feeling lonely. Um, I actually just signed up for a co-working space because it gets lonely, and one of the conversations there’s this um important event called um juicy and it’s centered around the co-working industry. They really focused on mental health and how they are seeing more and more co-working spaces provide mental health solutions. They mentioned a lot of actual therapists in their spaces helping people having dialogues. Um, and I think that’s very important to to bring up because, like you said at the beginning, mental health and wellbeing, they’re different things, right? One thing is, the beanbags and the ping pong tables.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:33:10,380 ] And yes, we’re well, but then another thing is actual mental health.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:33:13,980 ] Yeah, functioning.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:33:15,920 ] Right? And I think that if companies right now are struggling, as we continue to see with bringing people back to the office, I think these perks are benefits that actually provide value. Um, should be incorporated and they should be more thought of— would you agree?
Melissa Doman
[ 00:33:35,660 ] So again, there’s several questions in there.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:33:40,120 ] Firstly, the loneliness epidemic, you know, I mean, with more technology and quote connection than ever. You know, we are lonelier than ever, and I think one of the main reasons for that is based on social division for larger reasons and people hiding behind technology not being uh not really focusing on the importance of social health and community.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:34:05,840 ] So, as someone who also works remotely and commutes by plane, you know, it can be it can be lonely. And that’s why I and my husband as well, we both work remotely, his company doesn’t even have an office. So we both try to, you know, get out, find community because it can be isolating, you know, working and living at home. And at the same time, I really see that as a spectrum.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:34:35,380 ] Where you have office work, you have working at home, you have hybrid. And I think the key thing that is missing in certain circles is that flexibility piece where, for example, for some people working from home has improved their mental health. For other people, it has made it worse. So when you see some companies that say, okay, we’re back in the office five days a week for quote. uh collaboration but it’s really that office space is expensive and that’s big overhead.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:35:08,350 ] So, but we’re not supposed to say that. So I think that missing flexibility piece. Uh, is what can negatively impact mental health because there’s a lack of trust in other adults to work where and how they work best in certain companies.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:35:28,460 ] I love you.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:35:30,030 ] There’s a lot of push and pull that’s happening with that because we know adults love to be mandated to do things, says no one. Um, and then, you know, I think that the mental health support piece and the co-working spaces, what a great idea. I mean, especially when you have a lot of entrepreneurs, solopreneurs that work at those co-working spaces that sometimes they struggle to find community as well. So I tend to talk a lot about that because finding community as a self-employed person is so critical, especially talking about the mental health challenges of being a business owner. Um, so, and you had a couple of other questions I already forgot.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:36:16,580 ] No, but no, no, no, no. That was the main one. And I really, I really.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:36:21,380 ] I loved your answer because Oh, thanks! I believe and we believe at all work that the the future of work is about flexibility. That’s the core. Yeah, and what what’s providing that is co-working spaces. Um, yeah. I think having that flexibility and 100% it’s just the way to go. Right.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:36:44,140 ] And look, we’re nearing the end of our episode, but I wanted to ask you: if, if there could be one thing you could change about how leaders approach mental health, starting as of tomorrow, what would that be?
Melissa Doman
[ 00:37:01,200 ] Well, I have one for themselves and one for their teams, if that’s okay.
SPEAKER_2
[ 00:37:05,820 ] Awesome. Yes.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:37:07,820 ] So I think when it comes to the peace of their teams.
SPEAKER_2
[ 00:37:15,210 ] Mm-hmm.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:37:18,400 ] It might be a multi-part answer if that’s okay.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:37:21,340 ] Go for it, yeah.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:37:24,300 ] That, as a leader, you can show care for mental health at work without being a therapist.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:37:37,130 ] And I know there’s a lot of fear around kind of opening Pandora’s box. I understand that. I know there’s a lot of challenges. But caring about the general mental functioning of your team is part of the job.
SPEAKER_2
[ 00:37:51,690 ] Yeah.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:37:52,330 ] But the key to doing that well is knowing how to have the conversations well and knowing where the boundaries are.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:38:00,620 ] Okay.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:38:01,800 ] Which is why I do what I do because. Not knowing how to do it or being afraid of doing it is no longer an acceptable reason.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:38:10,340 ] Because we know better.
SPEAKER_2
[ 00:38:12,010 ] Yes.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:38:12,730 ] The second thing for leaders, mental health for themselves.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:38:18,660 ] Your teams will not see you as a human being unless you show them that you are one.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:38:25,120 ] And humanizing yourself and your capacity and your limits is actually a strength of leadership. It’s not a weakness.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:38:34,150 ] And you have to have your statement of intention about why you’re saying that, because if you don’t explain the reason, other people will fill it in. So that means saying. Uh, how do I want to say this?
Melissa Doman
[ 00:38:53,450 ] You know, I don’t even want to be too prescriptive. It’s really saying it in a way that sounds like you, that being aware of your limits and trying to manage the emotional toll is how you’re trying to be a healthy leader for them. And they will not see you as a human being with limits until you say that you are one.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:39:12,790 ] Yeah.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:39:13,940 ] Awesome. Excellently said. I mean, yes, that was a tough one. Yes. Excellent. We said, and I agree with what you just said. And yeah. I truly hope that, as we continue to navigate, you know, the future of work, this not only continues to be a conversation, which I so appreciate the time you took. Um, to have with me, but that companies, um, begin incorporating this.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:39:42,630 ] More and more. Because, like you said, at the end of the day, we’re all humans and um, it’s just something that needs to happen. How can our audience reach out if they want to learn? More, we’ll definitely link your books. Um so that people can check them out, if someone has, if they want to reach out, what would be the best way to do so.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:40:06,670 ] So, if you’d like to have me come into your company to do a workshop, fireside interview, strategic consulting, please reach out on melissadoman. com or you can contact me on LinkedIn.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:40:21,220 ] My Instagram is also at thewanderingmel. I also speak at summits, conferences, and both of my books, Cornered Office, Why We Need to Talk About Leadership Mental Health. And my first book, yes, you can talk about mental health at work. Here’s why and how to do it really well are available everywhere online where you buy books.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:40:42,620 ] Awesome. Melissa, thank you so much again. And I hope we get to.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:40:47,710 ] Have a round two, another episode as we go back, see what we talked about today and see if things are actually changing, which I believe we both hope. That actually happens. Thank you again.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:41:00,610 ] I would love to come back. That would be great.
Daniel Lamadrid
[ 00:41:03,050 ] Thank you so much. Have a good one.
Melissa Doman
[ 00:41:05,350 ] You too.
