Three Signs You’re Burnt Out With Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith

Daniel Lamadrid [00:01:16]: It’s a pleasure having you back again.

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith [ 00:01:18 ]: Thanks. I’m excited to get a chance to chat with you.

Daniel Lamadrid [00:01:22]: I’m excited as well for all of our listeners who are not aware of this. Doctor Saundra and I had a very insightful conversation a couple years back about the seven types of rest we need in order to be our best selves. And we’re going to be diving into that a little bit as it relates to the main topic that we’re going to discuss right now, which I think is something that needs to be talked about more. But I think the goal here is to really understand what’s going on and we’re going to be talking about burnout. Burnout seems to be this trending topic, this trendy word, this clickbait word, if you will, that everyone is just throwing out there. But is it a legitimate issue? Has it gotten worse? When did it really start to explode? Because the term itself came about in the 1970s. So before that, it wasn’t even a thing. How did we create it? What’s really going on here? What is your take on burnout?

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith [00:02:21]: Well, I definitely think it’s a real thing. And, you know, I think when we look at burnout, we have to realize that like 1960s, 1950s, there wasn’t as big of a focus on career the way we look at career now. I remember just, you know, growing up, I wasn’t in the sixties, thankfully, but growing up in the seventies even, you know, it was a big focus on family. Family life was the focus. That was the reason people worked. Now, there’s a bit of a shift in how a lot of us approach our careers. We have a lot more people who see themselves with an entrepreneurial type spirit, which kind of, in itself, even kind of brings on some. Some connotations about what that looked like and the importance and really the value we put in work. And I think that’s part of the reason we’re seeing such a big shift. We have a lot of people who are very career focused, even sometimes at the sake of their own health and their own well being.

Daniel Lamadrid [00:03:20]: I think. I think that’s very true. It’s what we call this hustle culture. Right? Hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle. And it’s, I think definitely you’re right on point here. I think. I believe burnout is a legitimate issue. I, as a person and as a professional, have maybe self diagnosed myself with burnout. Some studies these days go to say that four out of ten employees say they are burnt out. Fortune magazine goes out to say that almost eight out of ten employees are at risk of feeling burnout this year. So is burnout something we can diagnose ourselves with? Is it something that should be treated by a professional? Because I believe that recently, I think it was in 2019 when the World Health Organization recently added it to its. You must know this better than I. What is it called? They added it to their.

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith [00:04:26 ]: Yes. Their categories as far as their dmvs, their categories that they’re using to determine real diseases, basically. And so one of the things I think that we have to keep in mind that because it now does have a disease category attached to it, we do need to realize that there are specific, just like there’s ways I diagnose someone with diabetes, there’s ways you diagnose someone with, with major depression, there’s ways of diagnosing someone with burnout. However, a lot of us can be on the verge of something without having the actual diagnosis of it. And I feel like sometimes being on the verge of it is what kind of, is bringing it so much to the forefront. Some of those statistics you state, they vary based on, really, the profession. Some professions have a much higher rate of people going into burnout, particularly those that have a very high stress related aspect to their job, high change aspect to their job culture. They tend to have a higher. Be at higher risk and be at higher likelihood. Relevance of being someone who’s going to burn out. You know, with the World Health Organization, they primarily narrow it down to three categories that have to be checked. Three boxes, so to speak, that have to be checked for them to say someone has burnout. And to simplify those boxes, you know, the number. The first box is that someone has fatigue. They’re tired all the time. It’s not a fatigue that necessarily is related to, like, a medical condition. So you can’t quantify why this person is necessarily tired all the time. But they are. Number two is that they no longer find pleasure in the work that they do. And so most of us, you know, you get started with a job or a career, chances are you actually liked that profession. It’s something that you chose, you wanted to do. You weren’t coerced into it. And when you start noticing that, you know, let’s say for myself, you’re a physician, and all of a sudden you don’t like patients anymore, you don’t like being around people, or you don’t like the job. That’s another sign that they say, kind of checks that box off, and then the last one’s a little bit more subjective. But I think people who are experiencing it understand this for themselves, is that the work you’re producing is not even at the level of what you’re capable of producing. I often see it like this. You’re producing from your emptiness. It’s like you’re showing up every day. You’re present, but you are not actually passionate and engaged in the work in such a way that you’re giving your best self in the process. And so I feel like a lot of people relate with one or all of those symptoms to some degree. Now, with true burnout, it becomes those three symptoms get to a place where they are debilitating. Same with depression. You can be down in blue for a moment, but we don’t call that major depression because it’s not really affecting your life, your relationships, your, the way you show up in the world. You just have those symptoms and, you know, hopefully you get some treatment before it gets any worse than that. Well, that’s where a lot of people are. Those three things they recognize. I’m tired. I don’t, I’m not happy. And I’m just do, putting the hours in just to get a paycheck. I’m not really enthusiastic about this career, but for a lot of people, it’s not necessarily changing. Kind of having that, that severe effect on their life. It’s not debilitating in any way at that point.

Daniel Lamadrid [00:07:57 ]: Okay, that’s, that’s, that’s very interesting because, I mean, you just explained those three boxes that if someone were to go to a specialist, or you in this matter, in this case, the three boxes that the World Health Organization considers, which is the same ones that you just stated, is one, energy depletion and exhaustion. So fatigue, like you said it. Right. Negative feelings about the job and reduced professional efficiency, which is what you say, seems to be. It really depends on who’s looking at it from which angle. Right. I think something that you just mentioned is very true. And I like, like I said, I myself sometimes struggle with burnout. It’s on and off. I think it’s something that one can fix if they understand what the issue is. It’s just an on and off thing. But some, some studies show or say that burnout is especially dangerous for employers in this case because it tends to affect the most engaged employees. Employees can’t get burnt out if they don’t actually care about the job. And that makes a lot of sense.

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith [00:09:17 ]: Yes.

Daniel Lamadrid [00:09:17 ]: If someone doesn’t care about what they’re doing, they can’t feel burnt out. So it’s an issue that is affecting companies and employers, most engaged employees. And it’s costing, with the Harvard Business Review estimates that it’s costing companies from $125 to $190 billion in healthcare. And another fun statistic that we found is that for every burnt out employee a company has, for every $10,000 in salary, it’s costing the company $3,400. So what do you say to that? Why do you believe that maybe companies, employers, managers, leaders aren’t doing enough? And do you think they’re not doing enough? What’s your take on the whole employer side of things?

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith [00:10:17 ]: I don’t think they realize how big of a effect is having on their business, is what I think the problem is. I feel like for a lot of people, especially when I’m specifically working with a company or an organization, I find that most of the time they don’t put any focus on the well being and the burnout prevention of their team members until it’s actually affecting their bottom line. When they start seeing that their top talent’s leaving, when they and their, and their top talent isn’t leaving to go to a competitor, they are leaving the profession altogether. And oftentimes they’re leaving still passionate, still engrossed in the feelings of wanting to see whatever that mission is for that company. They just don’t have the energy to do what they’re passionate about. And so they get in this place of desperation where it’s like, I just can’t do it. I don’t want another job. I don’t think the grass is greener. I don’t think any grass is green. I’m just. And so we see a lot of people that are exiting well before they get to the point where they have stopped having value they can bring to a company. And I feel like that’s what I’m saying mostly, is that companies aren’t really putting two and two together, that people are. I mean, we use the term human resources because they people are a resource for a company. And with that being said, even natural resources have to be replenished and we have to be careful how we’re using the environment or we deplete it. It’s the same thing with people. And we’re not taking kind of the proactive approach in many leadership roles to understand that, the better I can equip them to understand how to restore and how to kind of help themselves stay burnout proof, the better it is, not only for them, which is fantastic, but for our company as a whole, because we can’t really function without those resources.

Daniel Lamadrid [00:12:19 ]: Yeah. And it’s especially specifically complicated to fix when we have a workforce where leaders and managers are burnt out. So how does burnt out leader and or manager help their burnt out employees? Is it a top to bottom thing? Is it a bottom to top thing? And what you just said really rings true, because when employees are feeling burnt out, they are three times more likely to be actively searching for another job. And I think those, those, that also goes to a company’s bottom line. Right. I also agree with you. Companies, I believe, are not really understanding the impact, not going to generalize that all companies do this, but they mostly don’t understand the negative impact that a burnout employee has on their business. So with that being said, do you believe burnout in what you see and discuss with the companies you work for? Do you believe that burnout is something that is generational for most cases? Do you believe that millennials tend to assume that burnout category more than Gen Z? Is it Gen Z? Is it maybe the same? What do you think about these generational differences? Because at least to my knowledge, we actually just published a new story on allwork space about this Gen Z, because of burnout, is choosing, is actively choosing to not join these industries that we discussed at the beginning that are high pressure finance, tech, these high pressure hustle, fake it till you make it professions, they’re choosing others that are more passive, let’s say healthcare, for example. What have you been seeing around? Maybe the generational influence of burnout.

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith [00:14:25]: Yeah, I think what I’m seeing, and I’m a parent, so I’m a parent of two, a child that’s in college, junior year of college, and another one who’s starting his freshman year coming up. And it’s interesting just hearing them discuss kind of career paths. And unlike myself, when I was in that age group, stepping into a career path, the work life dynamics of the job never crossed my mind. It was not even a concept I cared about, to be honest with you. It was like, this is what I want to do. This is what I’m passionate about. This is what I’m going for. However, we do have a culture now that is just more knowledgeable. I mean, I just. That’s the only way I can put it. This. They’re just more. They have more information. I didn’t have that type of Inf. I didn’t have Facebook, Instagram, Google, you know, any of those things. Back when I was initially making some of these choices, the only way I would have known what a career of a physician or any of these other jobs we’re talking about looked like was if I shadowed them or knew somebody who literally worked in the profession close enough to see their lifestyle. And so it was one of those situations where a lot of people signed up and went for jobs based on their own ideology of what that job in that career would look like. Now we have a culture. Not only are they able to go on YouTube and have ten people in the profession giving them a full layout of what the career looks like, a lot of them are also a lot more knowledgeable. Just because our tv shows are talking about some of these careers now, you know, we have a lot more information. And information is good. It gives you the ability to not go into something blind, but it also gives you sometimes the wisdom to sit back and think, do I really want to work like that? Do I really want to live like that? And so we do. We. You know, a lot of the statistics say some of these professions will be on a deficit of workers simply because people are not choosing to step into them. You know, I think early on, you asked the question about what, you know, what are leaders and teams to do? Like, whose role is this to help fix this problem? I think it’s. I think it’s everybody’s role. I think that’s kind of where the personal management part comes into it. It’s up to leaders to be able to first personally recognize and do the self assessment of, hey, I’m not feeling great. About where I’m at with my profession, my energy, you know, the way I show up in the workplace and to be able to spot it in their team. And rather than do what I see a lot of people do, just type of kind of like throw a, put a band aid on a gaping wound, just kind of some little quick thing that they’re going to do to try to make it better, to actually understand that. It’s just like with any other diagnosis, there’s a process. There are some, yes, education is good, but there’s an, there’s an actual. The application of the education is where the gap is for a lot of people. You can go online and learn anything you want to know about any type of anything, but oftentimes that doesn’t give you the skills to apply it. And that is where people have the gap. And so I find that a lot of what we do with the training isn’t just, yes, we have to go in and give them the high level view, because some people may not have taken the initiative to learn that. So we have to begin with that, but a big part of the work that we doing is the application of it. How do we implement this in real life? You know, it’s easy for me to tell someone, you need rest, go get rest. And they’re like, what is rest? Even? What does that look like? How do I, you know, how do I do that when my job is literally 24/7 or whatever, you know? So I think that’s where we have to get real about not only what our own needs are and being able to do the self, the self evaluation of that, but also having the vulnerability of saying, I understand I need this, but I don’t know how to do it.

Daniel Lamadrid [00:18:34 ]: Yeah, I completely agree with you, and I think we agree that whose fault is burnout or who is responsible for fixing one’s burnout? I think at least when it comes to professionals, it’s a two way street. It’s up to both employers to understand the issue and apply methods or strategies in order to prevent it. But it’s also up to the employee, I believe, to the person, to the professional themselves to ask these questions of themselves. And it’s funny what you were mentioning, because I have been down a path. We talk about technology and how we have so much information available to us to the point where we can learn anything, we know anything and we know about anything that going on anywhere in the world. And I sometimes find myself online looking for ways to improve my rest or work on myself. And then I end up watching Facebook videos till 02:00 a.m. so I think technology, technology is here to help. But it’s also a two sided story that I believe, or at least in my case, and I think a lot of people will relate to this adds to the burnout, right. We’re online, we’re working, we’re in front of a screen, and then we log off to do what? To go on to another screen. Right. We’re on our phones. It’s this whole screen. And we talked about this in our other conversation, the screen pandemic that is happening, when are we not looking at a screen? So when it comes to the employer side and with the companies that you work for, what are some, maybe I don’t want to call them straightforward because I don’t think they are. What are some of the strategies you suggest to these companies in order to tackle the problem head on?

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith [00:20:32 ]: Yeah, I think that the first strategy is really that initial understanding of the value of soft skills. I think for the most part that’s it starts with the leaders kind of getting that understanding. I think it’s one of the things I’m finding is that oftentimes within corporations, they want to get their sales team up. So they are putting a lot of emphasis in the training of sales teams, they’re putting a lot of emphasis in the training of their customer service and making sure people are customer friendly and all of these things without realizing that all of those different teams, the innovation teams, all of these different teams really first have to be in a good place themselves for that to work. It’s hard to have good customer service if you’re hating your own life. It just doesn’t work. And so I think that’s kind of where we’re starting with a lot of people is really helping them to understand where they at in their own level of well being as it relates to burnouth. You know, what is your current risk factors for burnout? Where are the play? Which of those three categories we talked about with the World Health Organization, which of those three categories are you seeing popping up in your own life and then taking it from there into what are some first steps you can begin? Whether that be with myself, I tend to focus on the rest, restorative parts of it. So whether that be identifying where it is that you’re needing restoration, what part of you is the most depleted, whether that’s physically you’re most depleted or relationally or energy wise as far as it relates to your creative energy. But looking at these different areas and then once you’ve narrowed it down, start to apply restorative practices in that specific area, rather than trying to just kind of hit it as a I’m tired. Let me just do all the things being very intentional and specific to restore the places that are most depleted first and then from there, letting that energy flow over into the other areas that may also need some, some support.

Daniel Lamadrid [00:22:43 ]: That’s amazing. And I think we’re going to dive really quickly into the seven types of rest. And for all our listeners, we’ll definitely link this on our episode page because it’s a very interesting topic and conversation we had. We’re not going to go deep into each one of them, but just a brief overview. I believe, and I told you this before we started recording the podcast, I take those seven types of rest very seriously. Now, I did not know of these. And so when I’m feeling burnt out, I try to do like this checkbox analysis of what type of rest am I not having right now? Is it the mental, is it the creative? And I believe that these seven types of rest apply to people, persons. But I believe companies can grab certain types of rest and apply them either to their office setting or to the way they work with their employees remotely. So could you just walk us through what these seven types of rest are? Just very briefly? Again, we’ll link our previous episode on our episode page so that people interested can dive deeper into these. But please go ahead.

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith [00:23:58 ]: Yeah, so, well, the seven include physical, mental, spiritual, emotional, social, sensory and creative. And so, looking at the different areas, as you mentioned, companies, they can be applied within companies. I mean, I approach them as individuals, but let’s say, for instance, within a company, if you’re noticing that particularly most companies are able to tell if they’re getting a high number of claims for any kind of specific disorder. So health plans, all of those things, being able to take a look at that. If everybody in your company is suffering from back pain, and that’s the number one reason people are going to their doctors and using their health benefit, that’s telling you something. And whether that’s, that’s telling you that something’s going on with the body. Ergonomics, if it’s all office space group that’s noticing this, or if it’s a construction group, it’s telling you something. There’s some training that’s needed because there’s a deficit that’s happening physically, leading to some, some side effect. In the same way, you know, companies can evaluate whether or not they have set up their day and even their week in such a way that people feel connected. You know, oftentimes when you talk about spirituality, people think, oh, well, we shouldn’t bring religion into companies. And I’m not trying to bring religion into companies, but we do need to bring spirituality into companies because people need to feel connected. And that’s really where, at the core, spirituality, this feeling of belonging, this feeling of providing to a greater good, having a cause that’s bigger than them, that they’re all working towards, it’s the mission statement behind most companies. If you can’t get people to get behind the spirit of your company, they’re not going to be your number one advocates, and they’re not going to be really good sellers or customer service advocates either, because the connectivity and the feeling of belonging within the company is what is going to make them able to represent you well. And so I think we have to realize that every area of this type of rest and restoration is applied personally, obviously, but also has a component that can be applied within every company, especially when we talk about creativity. I think there’s not a company on the earth that wants to stay alive and stay functioning, that doesn’t want some level of innovation and creativity at its very core. And so creativity is one of those things that requires opportunities for creativity to be sparked. And I don’t think we put enough emphasis on that. Well, oftentimes we kind of ask people to generate creativity and creative energy out of thin air, and that’s just not the reality. It’s something that is sparked when something else that has been created actually kind of shows you or gives you the ability, really, to kind of think outside of the box. And I think we have to keep fostering that within people so that they. They understand that, yes, there’s a whole lot more out there that we can create, but we also have to make room for us to appreciate what’s already been created, what accomplishments your company’s already done, to be able to see what else is possible.

Daniel Lamadrid [00:27:04]: That’s amazing. That’s a great way to put it. We’re nearing the end of our episode, and I’d like to ask you, we live in a modern day work environment where remote work is on the rise. Hybrid work is the future as we have defined it at all. Work, that’s space. Do you believe, and from what you’re seeing, that the rise in remote work and hybrid work and flexible and flexibility, is that something that could potentially alleviate burnout, or does that make it worse?

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith [00:27:45 ]: Well, I feel like 2020 kind of gave us a glimpse into that because, you know, it was 2020. Everybody was shoved into remote work for a moment. And that is when most people started to feel the least rejuvenated. And I feel like the reason being is because, you know, working from home sounds ideally like kind of the dream job. However, it does require a high level of personal boundaries.

Daniel Lamadrid [00:28:13 ]: I’d like to come out and say that it’s not at the beginning, like you say, it was the dream. Now, I don’t know if people will relate to this, but in my head, it’s like, do I want to go back to the office? I kind of do. I want to see people. It’s not the dream job. Sorry, go ahead. I wanted to just.

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith [00:28:31 ]: No, you’re exactly right. And I think that’s what a lot of people realized. It’s like, yes, you have to commute. Yes, you have to deal with personalities. You know, there’s things about every job. Everyone would like to change or, you know, move or some type of way. But the reality is going into work for a lot of people sets some very hard and fast life boundaries. And so they didn’t have to create the personal boundaries themselves. They already. The office was the office, and home was the home. Well, when the home is the office, where’s the boundary? It’s not there unless you create it. And a lot of us have not been trained or nor understand how to create those kind of healthy boundaries within our own living space. And so that got to be a problem. And then, as you mentioned, for a large number of people, even introverts, who say they like being alone, which I get it, but even introverts need interaction with other people. And so when you are placed in a situation where all of your work is done virtually, and yes, you see people on a screen, I get that. But there’s not the same connection as when you are breathing the same air, so to speak, and taking up the same space, there’s a different level of connectivity that is needed for a lot of us to feel the social rest that we have to have that feeling of kind of, I’m understood. There are people who are literally standing by me, you know, in this job, in this career, whatever it is. And I think a lot of us didn’t realize how important that actually was until it was taken away.

Daniel Lamadrid [00:30:05]: Yeah, that’s. Yeah, and that’s why I personally believe, and we at all work personally believe, that the future is hybrid. Any extreme other than hybrid is, I don’t think, is good for professionals or employers. I think professionals, in the end and employers need to have that option to go to a place to network and meet with their colleagues and have that human connection instead of being, yes, interacting like we’re doing right now. You’re in the States. I’m currently in Mexico. But it’s not the same thing. Right. As a closing argument, what would you say? What do you think the future of work holds for employee well being? Is there something you’d like to offer as a closing argument to either companies, employers, or employees who are currently experiencing burnout? What would you say to them?

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith [00:31:08]: You know, the number one thing that I would probably say is don’t blame yourself. You know, I find that a lot of people feel like, you know, if I’m fat, if I’m battling burnout, it’s because I personally, it’s all on me. It’s all my fault. It’s kind of this getting down on themselves, which then makes it even harder to get any type of healing. I think the number two thing would be is to, once you’ve recognized it, that’s an invitation for improvement. So you’re not going to beat yourself up in the process because you feel like you’re going into burnout. I find so many people get stuck there that they never move on to number two. Once you realize that, move on to the next stage. You know, a lot of the times when I’m working with people and they’ve gone through, you know, they’ve gone to restquis.com, they figured out what type of rest that they’re needing. That’s really that step. It’s now let’s determine what we need to do to move forward from here. You know, you’re not going to just wake up one day and the burnout’s going to be gone. There’s some intentional steps and some additional next steps you have to take that are going to require some lifestyle changes, whether that be being aware that you do need to rest and not always be on. Maybe that’s turning off your notifications when you get home from work and not checking, you know, all your emails when you’re supposed to be off, but actually having some time with family and reconnecting, but just really taking a look at what in your life has crossed the line that no longer is serving you. Maybe it’s a habit that you stepped into and now it’s part of your routine. Routines that are not actually making you better are just slowly killing you. So start looking at those routines and start making a shift back into something that is actually going to lead to your well being.

Daniel Lamadrid [00:32:57 ]: That’s amazing. Yeah. We’re currently undergoing what McKinsey calls the great exhaustion. And I think something, as you say, that we need to recognize is that it’s happening to a lot of people. But in order to fix it on a personal basis, we first have to identify it. And Doctor Saundra, it’s been a pleasure talking to you again, this time to all our listeners out there. Like I mentioned, we’re going to leave the link to our previous episode, to Doctor Saundra’s book as well. I would highly recommend that you look into it. And again, thank you so much, Doctor Saundra, for joining us on the Future work podcast.

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith [00:33:39 ]: Always a pleasure. Thank you.

Daniel Lamadrid [00:33:41 ]: Thank you so much.