WSJ Best Selling Author | Erica Keswin On How To Bring Your Human To Work

About this episode

WSJ Best Selling Author, Erica Keswin shares 5 crucial tips on how employers and employees alike can bring their best selves to work upon returning to the office or working from home or remotely. She also emphasizes the importance of rituals at work in order to cultivate and nourish culture, as well as actionable steps and strategies for leaders to excel and bring out the best in their teams.

What you’ll learn

• The importance of rituals within the workplace
• Why company culture is essential, especially when you have hybrid work environments
• Conflict management in hybrid workplaces
• How leaders can be more “human” in the workplace

Intro [00:00:00] So people would often ask me after Bring Your Human to work came out, they would say, well, what does it mean to bring your human to work? Like, do you really want me to bring my whole everything human to work? There is a caveat. This is work and it is a professional place. So, you, I always say, you know, bring your best human to work. Your most professional humans work, but they still weren’t sure what that meant. So, if I were to boil it down to one sentence, it really is about honoring relationships.  

Ceci Amador [00:00:50] Hello and welcome to the Future of Work podcast by Allwork.Space. My name is Cecoi Amador de San Jose, and today I’m looking forward to chatting with Erica Keswin. Erica is one of the bestselling authors internationally sought-after speaker and founder of The Spaghetti Project, a roving ritual devoted to sharing the science of stories and relationships at work. She is the author of bestselling books Bring Your Human to Work. 10 Sure Fire Ways to Design a Workplace That’s good for people, great for business, and just might change the world and rituals roadmap the human way to transform everyday routines into workplace magic. Erica, welcome.  

Erica Keswin [00:01:30] Thank you for having me.  

Ceci Amador [00:01:31] Of course. And before we get started, I want to thank Office R&D. Our sponsor for today’s podcast episode of its R&D is an amazing management platform that can help flexible workspace operators free up valuable time by automating administrative tasks and helping to make data driven decisions so that they can spend more time focusing on growing their brand and engaging with their community. Today, thousands of flexible workspace operators are reaping the benefits. You can learn more about them at office, R&D, Indeed.com and book your demo for free.  

Ceci Amador [00:02:02] So, Erica, I was reading your book up until earlier today, and I have to say that the introduction, the power you mentioned, the goal of the zero inbox I personally identified with that. I hate to see notifications, things on my phone and my email. I try to clean it up and reach zero every day and then that lasts like probably two minutes. It drives me nuts. And I think that throughout your book, bringing the human to work you, you hit the nail right in the head with saying that technology can do all these amazing things for the workplace, for business, but also kind of hurt Curtis a little bit. I want to start out by having you talk to us a little bit about how the idea of bringing your human to work come to mind for you. What did you experience first-hand? Did you see how difficult that is for people to be present at work? And what were some of the impacts that that you observed?  

Erica Keswin [00:02:57] Yeah. So, you know, one of I’m a workplace strategist, so I tend to watch for these things in the workplace. But one of the things I kept noticing was that people would be in the office. This was all before the pandemic, that they would be in the office with their colleagues, and they would be sitting by themselves alone together. And they would, you know, call into meetings from down the hall. You know, the boss would say, come on, let’s you know, we’re going to bring come together with our team in my office. And I kept hearing the story over and over. Where were some of the people would say, You know what, I’m just going to call in from my office, and I couldn’t really understand it because being, you know, working in this world, this space for twenty five years, you know, you learn so much when you’re in person with someone reading their body language and putting the client on mute and, you know, having a boss mentor you in person. Now, obviously, much of that has changed during this pandemic, but I wrote this book in Twenty Eighteen, so you know, that really was the motivation to say that, you know, how do we find what I call the sweet spot between tech and connect? How do we leverage technology for all its greatness? But then how do we also put technology in its place and connect face to face? And I think, you know, as we go into twenty-two or at another interesting fork in the road where we need to think about, you know, these hybrid workplaces and how do we leverage technology again to keep us connected when we’re remote? But I’ve been doing a lot of work and thinking and consulting around when we do come together. We can’t just show up like we have to be very intentional about how we design the days and the hours that we do spend together to get the most out of it.  

Ceci Amador [00:04:47] You bring up a very interesting and very important point, which is that the return to the office will have to be very, very intentional for companies, especially those that will adopt the hybrid work models where workers can choose when and how they come into the office. I heard someone say that what’s the point of going into the office if you’re going to be the only person there? So, I think that companies will need to figure out a way to leverage technology to make sure that when people do come in, they can connect with one another and not through technology.  

Ceci Amador [00:05:18] I think it’s your book brings out a lot of the topics that even back in twenty eighteen companies were struggling with. But right now, because of the pandemic, it’s just making it even harder and more critical for them to address these types of issues. One example that I liked about your book is the example of JetBlue and how they conduct their onboarding and how they walk the talk. So just, you know, bring yourself to work. They’re your authentic self to work. And they were very authentic from the examples that you gave in your book. But this was in an in-person setting, and one of the things that have changed because of the pandemic is that people are being onboarded virtually. How can companies make sure that the onboarding process is virtually still allows them to bring the human to work? Because, like you said, in the end, there is a lot to do with like meetings being on camera. A lot of stuff that even with the video on you, you can’t naturally see the bar, the tone, the body language, the subtle cues about the expressions and stuff like that. I think it can be easily missed, especially, and this is how I’m imagining it can. It kind of goes. You have a presentation that you’re giving, you’re sharing your screen. And then at least with Zoom, you have like the little just like snippets, windows of the video camera of everyone. But then if you’re giving a presentation, you’re not really looking at them in the camera. So how you can miss all these important signs and cues. So, what can recruiters and managers and leaders do to bring the human touch in a virtual setting, whether onboarding people or in meetings  

Erica Keswin [00:07:00] And then similar – it goes back to being intentional. So, I think the onboarding process starts not even on the first day, but well before the first day. And so again, whether you’re talking about in-person onboarding or remote onboarding, you know, give that person a buddy. Somebody that reaches out to, welcomes, welcomes you into the organization answers any questions. Oftentimes, it’s great if it’s not a manager, you know, make it someone who’s more like a peer. And now when we’re doing this virtually that first day is even that much more important. So, what happens? You know, it’s I start on November 29th and Monday after Thanksgiving, and do I? What do I do? Do I just turn on my computer? No, I mean, as you’re on Zoom, you and your manager need to meet with you. The day needs to be very curated in terms of check ins in terms of what’s expected. You know, one way to think about onboarding, you know, I talk a lot in the book about values. You know, companies often have the values and sadly, many of the companies just have values that are sitting on a plaque there on the walls. The key is how do you get them off the walls and into the halls and bring them to life? And you know, the onboarding process is one way to do that.  

Erica Keswin [00:08:14] So, you know, if you recruit somebody and you bring them into your company and you’re all about collaboration and you’re all about excellence, you know, through this onboarding process, you need to show what that looks like, what that means. And so that could be through storytelling. You could be through using a slack channel. It could be through, you know, showing people that you’re going to get put on a bunch of different projects and how people are expected to collaborate. And so doing it through the lens of the values is important.  

Erica Keswin [00:08:42] I also think that especially being remote, that somebody should be checking in with this person, I would say, at least once or twice a day every day for the first month that this people there.  

Ceci Amador [00:08:55] How do you and I think that’s great. I think that that can bring the human connection and that human touch. But how do you prevent those regular check ins from becoming a distraction? And that’s something that you also mention in your book. We have all these collaboration tools. You have email, you have Slack, you have a son and different apps and platforms, but they can become a distraction that were meaningful connections that really take place anymore, especially if you’re trying to use all of them at the same time. So. Tell us a little bit about how these checking should go. What do they look like if they’re just a quick case? Everything good or hey, do you have any questions or like you said, should they be more intentional? Some specific questions, I feel, and this is from my early days when I first started a new job, I didn’t necessarily know why I needed help with some sort of thing. So, you don’t you’re not as familiarized with stuff. So, whenever people ask, do you have any questions, the natural response is, well, not really. But you know how when they tell you when they when you want to help someone instead of saying, hey, let me know if you need any help that you should provide, kind of like a specific example, like I can get your groceries, I can pick you up that that kind of thing. How is that similar for a virtual environment when onboarding a new person?  

Erica Keswin [00:10:15] Well, when we’re talking about currently during this remote time, you know, the last 18 months have really turned everything on its head. And so, what I have found is that in the beginning of the pandemic, you know, 60 minutes of a 60-minute meeting were spent checking in, you know, six months into the pandemic, 30 minutes of a 30-minute meeting were spent checking in.  

Erica Keswin [00:10:36] And now I get the question all the time do I need to keep checking in? And the answer is yes. I mean, we’re still we’re not through this and people are still I mean, the numbers, even as of today, are much higher than we thought that it would be. So, it’s important to keep checking in, but we also need to get work done. And so, a couple of ideas for leaders and I think about this through the lens of rituals, which is I cover in me in my second book Rituals roadmap, you start off a meeting and have everybody go around the Zoom or if you’re in person and share one word that describes how you’re showing up and what that does, it’s inclusive. Everybody participates. If you have introverts on your team, let them know ahead of time it’s going to happen. They can think about what their word is going to be. It brings out some interesting themes. You know, if you’re a manager and everybody’s word is, you know, I’m great, things couldn’t be better. And that happens week after week. Perhaps you don’t have the kind of culture where people can be open and honest because it’s not often that all 10 people in your meeting every week you know that things are perfect. If somebody does share a word that indicates that you know, things are a bit crazy at home that day one, it gives you an opportunity to have a deeper check in with that person and have a one on one. It also gives the team an opportunity to step in and, you know, be supportive and provide extra help.  

Erica Keswin [00:12:03] So I think that is a way and try to bring that into a ritual into your meeting. Alternatively, I would say you can do both things. Sometimes, you know, to your point, when you say, So, how are you doing? Some people don’t know how to answer that, or they don’t. It doesn’t seem that you really care or want to know the answer. So recently, I heard I was listening to a podcast with the head of H.R. from Dropbox, who said that in their leadership development, training managers are asked to start their check ins by saying, you know, how are you? How are you really, really doing? And I think just shifting that and pausing, you know, gives the listener, wow, like they really want to know how I’m doing. And I think it’s important right now, especially end of twenty-one, beginning of twenty to during this great resignation, people are leaving jobs and the ones that stay feel connected. And so, the checking is important, probably even more than it was before.  

Ceci Amador [00:13:06] Yes, I agree that with the great resignation, the skyrocketing numbers of people quitting, it’s a feeling of connection with the company, with leaders, with coworkers. It’s key to preventing staff from leaving within the organization. And then you were also talking about rituals and like you said, you have another book that’s completely dedicated to that. But what are some rituals that you believe can improve workplace dynamics, especially in a hybrid environment?  

Erica Keswin [00:13:33] So, you know, it depends on the company. But when I started to interview hundreds of people about their rituals at work, sometimes people weren’t even sure what their rituals, what the rituals are. And so, I came up with a question that when I asked leaders the question, suddenly, they would have that light bulb moment and say, Oh, wow, that’s our ritual.  

Erica Keswin [00:13:54] So I’ll share with your listeners the magic question. I asked this, for example, to Marissa Andrade, who’s the head of Chipotle. And I asked executives at LinkedIn and all different kinds of companies. And the question is, you know, when do associates or when do employees feel most Chipotle ish? Most part the culture. And when I ask that question, you know, Marissa was able to say, you know, one of our important rituals is every day before we open the doors at Chipotle at 10:30 a.m. Every. Day at 10:15, all the people that have come in in the morning to chop up the lettuce and make the guacamole, they all sit around the table and have a meal together and it makes them feel connected. They take a deep breath before the doors open. And there’s a study out of Cornell that found that the firefighters, for example, who are the most dedicated to the ritual of the firehouse meal, it correlates with higher levels of performance.  

Erica Keswin [00:14:48] And those firefighters save more lives. And so, you know, there are even some companies that have been eating together over Zoom. So, a lot of the rituals, whether it’s hybrid or in-person, you start by thinking about those as it relates to that to answering that question and the themes that popped up. You know, there were rituals around onboarding rituals in the beginning of meetings. And Eileen Fisher, they ring as they ring a gong before the meeting just to have everybody sort of settle at some of the Toyota the somebody shares story that’s related to their value around safety. And so, it’s just these moments that really connect people. There was a group of companies that said, you know what, we feel most connected to our company during our annual celebration when we all come together to celebrate a win or just, you know, celebrate what we’ve done at the end of the year. So, when you think about the employee experience, the examples and the opportunities for rituals really are in all those different, those different places.  

Ceci Amador [00:15:48] Have you ever come across companies that don’t have rituals or I mean, maybe they do, but they’re not fully in place or they’re not consistent? I think that’s part of an important key part of having rituals that they must be consistent for them to work. Otherwise, if it fluctuates, it doesn’t really work. So, in your experience, have you come across companies that have a hard time identifying these rituals? And if so, what are some ways that leaders and managers can make sure to bring that ritual part to work on a regular basis?  

Erica Keswin [00:16:17] Yeah. So, a couple of things, I mean, rituals can come from anywhere. They can come from the top down the bottom, up the inside out. And you know, rituals are more of a pull versus a push, you know, can’t really mandate a ritual. You know, you must do this just by definition. That sort of makes it not a ritual. So, the first thing I would say is that for leaders listening, if you try to start something or if you have a ritual and it’s just not catching on after you try, I think we need to take our ego out of it and move on because there are other rituals that that will sort of have that stickiness. But this one, for whatever reason, just hasn’t caught on. You can ask for input from your team and say, you know, here’s the science of rituals. You know, here’s why rituals are so important. You know, what do you think we could do for ritual for our team? I’ve also seen leaders that once we’ve talked about the definition of a ritual and the ROI of a ritual, and I asked them that question, you know, when do employees feel most connected? They realize that they had them, but they didn’t necessarily call them rituals. They were just things that they did. And you know, it’s a ritual. If it goes away and people kind of go crazy, they think, oh my gosh, you know what happened? Or they think the company is being sold and they really miss it when they’re gone.  

Erica Keswin [00:17:33] And so I think it’s all those things. One quick story that I’ll share just to show that you can create a ritual and have it stick. In the book, I interview a guy named Morty Shapiro, who’s the president of Northwestern University, and he came from Williams College University. That’s like steeped in rituals. It’s so many rituals. And he got to Northwestern, and he said to his team, OK, everybody, what are our rituals here, our new rituals at my new school? And people looked at him like he was nuts and he was like, wow, you know, this is important. We need to have some rituals. So, there was a big arch on campus. And so, he said, you know what, why don’t we on the first day of school of a of a four-year college experience, the very first day of your journey, let’s have all the students walk through the arch and let’s try that as a way. Again, rituals bring us together and give us that feeling of connection and your oxytocin goes up and your stress goes down. And again, there’s a lot of science behind that. The health benefits and the business benefits and all of that. And so, the first year, he probably had about 50 kids walk through the arch, and he’d forgotten to tell the local police to shut the streets down and the kids were running in the streets. The second year, about 250 kids walk through the arch.  

Erica Keswin [00:18:48] The third year they had all two thousand people, all the kids walking through the arch. And now it is literally a ritual that you would never miss even the Parents’ Day. And I now have friends whose kids go, and they take pictures, and it’s an unbelievable thing. And Morty shared with me a story where he interviewed. He spoke to a junior. It was about to be a senior, and he says to the kid, you know, so you’re about to be a senior. You know what has been one of the most memorable moments in your almost four years here at Northwestern? And the kids said, you know, Dr. Shapiro, it was march through the arch because I felt it felt so. Good to be connected to all those people that had come before me and Morty then says with a wink in his eye, I didn’t have the heart to tell the poor kid it was only the third year. And so that’s the magic of rituals that when they stick and they’re connected to the values and they really bring people together in the culture of your organization, there’s just a magic to it.  

Ceci Amador [00:19:50] I must agree. You were telling the story. I was trying to think of a ritual in my school and there’s some that stand out. But those are a story for another day. Eric Brandon, one of the things that I really liked about your book, and you mentioned the very, very early on in the first chapter is the importance of honoring relationships. I want to ask you what that means to you and what does it look like in a workplace setting and why is it so important?  

Erica Keswin [00:20:19] So people would often ask me after Bring your human to work came out, they would say, well, what does it mean to bring your human to work? Like, do you really want me to bring my whole everything human to work? There is a caveat. This is work and it is a professional place. So, you, I always say, you know, bring your best human to work. Your most professional humans work, but they still weren’t sure what that meant.  

Erica Keswin [00:20:44] So if I were to boil it down to one sentence, it really is about honoring relationships and honoring relationships with your colleagues, with your boss, with your direct reports, with your clients and customers, and honoring the relationship with yourself. It really is all all those things. And you know, there’s a litmus test when you’re looking to decide. Do you hire this person? Do you do a new deal, different things that you might change in your company? I often think about those decisions through this lens of thinking about all those relationships and the impact on all those relationships. And I think when we can keep. That top of mind it does end up creating a much more humane workplace.  

Ceci Amador [00:21:36] I agree there’s something and I don’t want to put you on the spot, but maybe a little. This is something that came up in the meeting today. Earlier, we were talking about, you know, with remote work and hybrid teams, how do you ensure that the way people honor relationships is, it’s going to resonate in the right way because the way people on the relationships across the globe is very, very different from culture to culture. So, companies that have distributed teams? How can they make sure that the way people on the relationships across the border for to put it in one way is a positive experience for all? So, I know that the way people on the relationships here in Guatemala may be different than the way they do in Germany, in the U.S. and Canada or Mexico. So how can you make sure that there are no conflicts that could arise from the way that people honor relationships? How can leaders set the tone and who should oversee setting that tone at work and?  

Erica Keswin [00:22:34] Look – there may be conflicts, and that’s part of having a global organization and having these conversations. But if a company has a set of values that truly represent, you know, the soul and the essence of the behaviors that are expected in an organization, I look at everything through that lens.  

Erica Keswin [00:22:56] You know, some companies end up having way too many values. That’s a problem with many companies. You know, if you have 10, 12, 14 values, it’s not going to drive any kinds of behavior. You know, if you my sweet spot is sort of three to six values, if that’s what we stand for as a company, if those are the behaviors, it’s the how right the mission and the strategy is, the what the values are, the how we are going to get things done. And yes, there might be differences in terms of the way that we approach things. But if we have similar values personally and the values that we stand for at work, you’re going to get much closer. And that’s the starting point, then it’s up to the leader to set those expectations and to think about it across his or her, you know, different geographies and to have conversations about what living that value might look like in the U.S. versus in Guatemala versus in Mexico City and bring that to life and have those conversations. I mean, that’s, you know, honoring relationships is a big piece of it is being able to have those conversations and doing it through the lens of the values is provides the structure within which you can have those conversations.  

Ceci Amador [00:24:09] You brought up. A very interesting point, then, is that conflict is to be expected in global organizations.  

Erica Keswin [00:24:14] Yes!  

Ceci Amador [00:24:16] It’s not necessarily something bad, but sometimes I do believe that the best innovations and ideas come out of conflict resolutions or people having different perspectives. But in a hybrid setting, again, everything is different and can become a little bit more complicated. The way people interact with you, they talk to each other. How can companies improve conflict management in hybrid work settings? And I think I’ve told this example several times in the podcast by now, but I’ve had complaints made about me because I was too short on messages. So, my usual responses are OK. Yes, no, because I have other things to do, and it can get distracting if not in there, like, well, she’s not nice. She comes across mean, and I’m not mean, but they haven’t met me, and we don’t always use video. So, what are some ways I feel like in the hybrid work environment, it can be very, very easy for things that would not normally become a conflict to turn into a conflict. So going back to your idea that conflict is to be expected. How can companies and leaders manage conflict in a way that’s healthy and that provides kind of the same space for all parties involved to voice whatever they need?  

Erica Keswin [00:25:35] So you can’t leave it to chance. I’m I’ll send it to you when it’s ready, you can share it out to your listeners. But I have an article coming about the top 10 ways to have a successful hybrid meeting. And it’s you must begin with intention. You bet you must end with intention, you have to have rules of the road. So just some a couple that, you know off the top of my head. I mean, let’s say you have four people in the office and six people at home, perhaps once every other week, everybody calls in. Even if even if you’re co-located, everybody calls in with their own link to democratize the experience. I mean, during the pandemic, that was one of the things that people talked about as being a positive that suddenly everybody was sort of on this equal playing field.  

Erica Keswin [00:26:22] And now, as we go back into the office, it’s going to be challenging. You know, I spoke with the CEO yesterday who said one of the. And things that they do is when they’re having, you know, when they put something out and they ask a question and they want responses, they are very, very intentional. First, somebody that’s remote gets called on to give, you know, his or her idea. Then someone’s in person and you keep alternating back and forth, back and forth, and you do that throughout the meeting. You know, you tell everybody to really be polite and mind their manners that that the people in the office and someone has to orchestrate this and manage it and run it because the last thing you want is the four people that are in the room together, you know, having side conversations and you’re making the people that that are remote just feel really bad. And that is not what you want. Again, we’re during this great resignation and this will,  

Erica Keswin [00:27:16] I guarantee, cause people to leave. And so, you want to begin on time, you want to end on time, you want to make sure, for example, that when the meeting ends, it ends and that the four people that are in the room together, you know, you need to tell them. It is important that you don’t keep talking about the topic because only 40 percent of the people are there. And it’s and that again goes back to your question about honoring relationships. If you’re thinking about through that lens, you’re going to realize that that feels crappy if you’re at home when the four people in the office are continuing the meeting when you’re not there. And so it’s having a plan, having these rules of the road, it’s being flexible, knowing that the rules might change and then thinking about it again through the values, which I know seems some people will say, Oh, that’s so touchy feely and sort of squishy, but I would push back and say sometimes, especially now this soft stuff is really the hard stuff, and it is so, so important right now.  

Ceci Amador [00:28:16] I agree. And what you just said about this had not even crossed my mind. Like if everyone in this participate in this meeting, meeting, whether you were in person with the others or not, the meeting needs to stop at the same time. For everyone like you said, you want people, you don’t want people to have side conversations during the meeting. And I don’t know if this happened to you, but I remember when the pandemic first hit, everyone was doing through virtual events with family and friends. And I never liked them because you could always, I mean, you could see because you had the camera, but it was obvious when people started having kind of like side conversations and it was not like we were all together in the same event, more like people were, you know, we were all each other’s this background noise. So, I ended up hating them, and I never went to any other virtual event them like, I’ll meet up with you whenever we can do well.  

Erica Keswin [00:29:07] But that’s a great that’s a great example, because if somebody had been orchestrating that and having rules of the road to participate so that everybody feels good, you know, maybe you have, you know, maybe the first one you they bring in, you know, a mixologist and everybody makes a drink together. And you know, everybody, you know, goes around and says something and it’s inclusive versus your experience with it. And so, you know, that’s the risk of these hybrid meetings not working that I have a podcast also which is called left to our own devices.  

Erica Keswin [00:29:45] And I called it that because left to our own devices excusing the cheesy pun, we’re not connecting. And so, if you have a hybrid meeting without thinking through how it works, when it starts, when it ends, the technology, icebreakers, checking in all these things and then your goals, it’s going to be a free for all and people will leave feeling less connected than ever before.  

Ceci Amador [00:30:13] Yeah, I agree. Unfortunately, we’re almost running out of time here, Erica. So, off the top of your head, what are the I want to say top? But what are some five ways that people can bring their human to work tomorrow?  

Erica Keswin [00:30:27] Wow, OK.  

Erica Keswin [00:30:30] I would say number one, be real and speak in a human voice. And what I mean by that is if the more open and even vulnerable you can be. You will get everybody else to open as well, especially if you are a leader or a manager, that your goal is a lot of times people think that the manager has it all figured out, so be real, speak in a human voice and say that is number one.  

Erica Keswin [00:30:57] Number two, you know, these days, you know, mental health is really an issue. Things are unprecedented in terms of stress. So, the second way to bring your human to work is create a culture of wellness. And that could be through a ritual of people taking deep breaths. Or, you know, a manager could say, OK, every Wednesday wellness Wednesday, we’re going to have an hour from one to two to just turn everything off and then report back on, you know, taking care of yourself and spending a little time kind of putting your own oxygen mask on first.  

Erica Keswin [00:31:31] So I would say those are two, you know, meetings is a third one is that, you know, bringing your human to work these days is thinking through what we just spoke about with meetings.  

[00:31:44] I’d say number four is returning to rituals or creating new ones and really thinking about the way that especially in a room, in a hybrid environment, that even just a quick ritual of going around and sharing a word with people how that really can be that connective tissue and that and that stickiness.  

[00:32:04] And I’d say the last and certainly not least and especially as we’re taping this right before Thanksgiving, is to say thanks and to have gratitude. And that’s another thing that makes a big difference at work. You know, people want to hear things, and the research shows that the person giving the thanks gets just as much out of it as the person receiving it.  

Ceci Amador [00:32:23] I love all of those and the last one that you mentioned, I feel like gratitude has become a very, very important talking point over the past almost two years in a workplace setting. And I think I don’t know if this is directly a result of the pandemic, but I’ve seen so many leaders talk about how just saying thank you for the work you do or the work that you’re doing, it can have an immense power to make people feel happier and much more connected at work. Yeah. So, thank you, Erica. And if people want to learn more about you, the work you do and the books you’ve written, where can they go? Great, they can  

Erica Keswin [00:32:59] find me on my website was just my name, Erica, because win dot com and find me on LinkedIn, they can find me on my Instagram, which is just my name. And it talks about what I do, the keynote talks and the workshops around how to bring your human to work and how to bring rituals into the workplace.  

Erica Keswin [00:33:16] And we’d love to hear from your listeners.  

Ceci Amador [00:33:18] Awesome. So, there you have it, everyone. You know where to find Erica and thank you again to our sponsor office R&D and to everyone. Thank you for tuning in to the Future of Work podcast by Allwork.Space. Remember that you can tune in on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube. New episodes are released every Thursday.