Daan Van Rossum CEO of FlexOS and Dreamplex | Helping Companies Thrive in Any Hybrid Structure

What you’ll learn

• What styles of hybrid work are the most effective
• How can current leaders overcome the challenges of hybrid work?
• What is FlexOS and how is it transforming the future of work?
• How to use gamification to get people to engage.
• Why should workplace experience be a priority?
• How to create a workplace experience that suits multiple generations
• Crucial workplace experience factors

Transcript

Daan Von Rossum [00:00:00] Companies are really adopting it in a lot of different ways. And to be honest, whenever we speak to people, leaders and business leaders here in the region, everyone just says sometimes only behind closed doors, but everyone says we’re all just trying to figure it out. This is a really new way of working. There’s a lot of testing still to be done. Even the way we’re currently doing it, it may totally change down the line. We just have to sort of find a way, and that’s the journey that we’re all on.

Jo Meunier [00:00:45] Hello and welcome to the Future of Work Podcast y Allwork.Space. I’m Joe Meunier, and today we’re talking about the importance of engagement in the world of hybrid work and why a positive workplace experience matters. I’m pleased to welcome Daan Von Rossum, the CEO of FlexOS and Dreamplex. He’s joining us today from Vietnam. FlexOS helps companies launch and manage hybrid workplaces, while Dreamplex focuses on designing and delivering a better workplace experience. Or, in Daan’s words, we’re on a mission to help companies thrive in any hybrid structure by focusing on organizing workplaces and engaging employees. So, I’m looking forward to digging into this subject today, and clearly, we’ve got just the right person for the job. So welcome, Daan, and thank you for joining us today.

Daan Von Rossum [00:01:29] Thank you for having me, Jo. And I know it’s very early for you, so thanks for doing this bright and early. And great to speak today.

Jo Meunier [00:01:40] We’re thrilled to have you on. So, we’ll jump straight into the questions. But first of all, could you tell us a little bit about your two companies and what led you on this particular entrepreneurial journey?

Daan Von Rossum [00:01:51] Absolutely. So, as you said before, I’m Daan I’m the CEO of FlexOS as to start there. So FlexOS  actually just launched officially a month ago. So, it’s very, very new. And we’re kind of like a few days away from announcing our seed rounds that we just completed. And that will really give us the ammunition to now fully go for it. And with FlexOS, we really focus on hybrid work and specifically on helping companies solve some of the challenges that hybrid work brings. And this really is focused on, as you said, employee engagement, employee experience. It’s focused on using data to create more personalization in the way that we work and really getting people together, which is a big challenge for a lot of companies in this new world of work because we’re more fragmented than ever. And so that company, FlexOS is borne out of Dreamplex, which is the other company that I’m currently the CEO of. And Dreamplex is you could call it co-working space. You could call it some kind of a we work. But even in Dreamplex, we always took the focus on not just the office, but really what happens within the office. Because for most companies and for the employees that they’re trying to attract and to engage and retain, that’s really the thing that matters, right? What’s the day to day experience of coming to the office? And if I can do my work anywhere, why would I even come to the office? Right. And so having solved that within doing flex onsite for a lot of companies, we decided to take it outside of our four walls and do it as a platform. And that’s the new journey that we’re on with flex of us.

Jo Meunier [00:03:35] Fantastic. And with that, what with that focus on workplace experience as a service, can you talk to us about some of the most crucial workplace experience factors that we should know about?

Daan Von Rossum [00:03:47] Yeah. Probably none of this comes as a surprise to you as someone who understands this world really well and some of some of the readers and listeners. But there’s a couple of things that we have really experience to be extremely crucial when we’re thinking again about an office that people don’t need to go to, but they want to go to. And those are things that you typically don’t hear people say about offices like, I can’t wait to go back to the office. And that’s why it’s such a nightmare and such a struggle for a lot of companies and a lot of people leaders. So, we really just focus on figuring out on a continuous basis, you know, what does it take to make people say, I love coming to the office? And in our case, we found that there are a couple of key elements to it. So first and foremost, the office needs to provide all the amenities that you need to do your work. Well, that is something that’s not really new. Of course, offices where always hopefully offices were always designed with the employee in mind and what would they need to do their best work, because that’s in everyone’s best interest. But the way that we work has shifted now. And so therefore also what needs to be present in an office in terms of the kind of amenities, the kind of facilities that is really important now. So, from an office design perspective, we see some shifts towards, you know, maybe not just a sea of desks when you walk in and you walk around reception, but is there space to collaborate? Is there space to socialize? Is there space to do the things that we cannot do well at home? And again, that’s really where you’ll hear me say two words together a lot. That’s really where the human component comes in.

Daan Von Rossum [00:05:24] That’s really where the social component comes in. And that so is something that’s really changing now in the way that offices are designed. And of course, for some of our partners, for some of the companies that are moving to a hybrid way of work, they now have to figure out how many desks do I still need, how many focus stations do I still needs, and how do I then make sure that, you know, there are and one day too many people for the amount of workspaces I have, and then some other days the offices are completely empty. And people who show up on that day are sitting in a ghost town making their zoom calls behind the desk with no one around them. So that’s really on the design side. And then on the other hand there is really the engagement part. So again, you could have the most beautifully designed offices and we’ve heard this time and time again from people that are really a great reason to join a company. You know, you do your first interview with a company, you step into this amazing office and you’re like, wow, I can just picture myself working here. It’s going to be amazing. But as humans, we have this concept of economic adaptation, meaning that after a while everything becomes normal. There sort of a regression to the mean. And so even that most beautiful office, that coolest building at some point is becoming the norm. And therefore, we don’t experience it as something positive anymore. And therefore, their focus really needs to be on how do you make it exciting every single day, every single week, every single month to come to the office. And that’s really the ongoing engagement and experience that a lot of companies are now investing more in.

Jo Meunier [00:06:57] And before we get into the how, why is engagement and workplace experience so important? What is what can achieve first or if companies don’t pay attention to it, what are they missing out on?

Daan Von Rossum [00:07:11] Well, this is a really good question. And, you know, ask any people leader, ask any CEO, you know, what is your biggest challenge right now? Some people may say business, competition, the economy, but obviously the biggest thing is always people. Right. So, a company is nothing but a group of people. And if you want to have a company that does really well and performs extraordinarily, you need the best people in the world. Right. And in order to get those best people in the world, and especially to keep them, you need to make sure that people want to work for you. Right. And so, the office obviously can be one part of that. There are great examples of companies like Automatic or Buffer who are completely remote, and they basically have found a way to replicate all the things that happen sort of organically in an office, in a remote workforce. But the office can be one really big part of why someone would come to work for you and would stay with the company. And that is obviously extremely critical because people make the company. People are the ones that create the results that we need for a company.

Daan Von Rossum [00:08:18] And we also know that it’s extremely difficult to find good people and it’s extremely costly to lose good people. Right. So we see here in the region, in Singapore, they’ve done some research, some calculations that it can cost up to like $150 – $200 to lose a really good employee, not only because you have to rehire, which means that, you know, you may have to pay for recruiting costs to get that good employee in, but also just all the knowledge that walks out of the door, all the experience that walks out of the door, all the understanding of how your company works, walks out of the door when that person leaves. So, both in terms of getting good people in, in terms of getting the most out of them during the time that they’re with your company, and to make sure that they stay around, you need to do a lot of work as a company to make sure that that happens. And that’s really the way for companies to invest in employee engagement. Employee experience is just generally to sing very thoughtfully about what is it like for an employee to be a part of this company?

Jo Meunier [00:09:23] And it feels like there’s a lot of emphasis on this now and in recent years, not just related to the pandemic, but over the past few years, there seems to have been lots of momentum building where companies are now placing a lot of emphasis on the engagement side and on the workplace experience. And how has that changed over recent years? How and why did this shift start to happen?

Daan Von Rossum [00:09:47] So, Jo, I think that the shift really happened because there was one sort of huge move, which is that we were we kind of went from an employer centric world to an employee centric world. Right. So, of course, if you are in a very employer centric world and the employer can just say, here’s a bunch of pay checks, here’s a bunch of open positions who wants and people run in masse to that company, then you don’t really have to cater to the employee’s needs. Right. You basically can just say what you want and make sure that that happens and get the people in. But now, in the last couple of years, we’ve seen a huge shift towards this kind of like employee centric thinking because the power is more in the hands of employees, not that there is more scarcity for talent. And, you know, we work a lot with, you know, more innovative industries like fintech or e-commerce or the mega apps and the delivery companies. You know, these are all they’re competing for the same talent. And whenever you’re competing for something, you need to somehow stand out. Right. And so, for employers and that goes from all the way up front with employer branding and the recruiting process all the way down to engagement and retention there. Therefore, it needs to be this huge focus on, again, why would someone join and why would someone stay? And, you know, in Singapore, this is something that you just see basically across all industries. The reason why so many companies move to hybrid work, even though most employers in Singapore say, I don’t want to do hybrid because it’s extremely difficult to pull off well.

Daan Von Rossum [00:11:26] The only reason that they do it is because employees have the power. Microsoft research there showed that two out of five employees say they will quit their job if they don’t get flexibility in when and where to work. So, again, what choice does an employer have? Right, unless you want to lose all those great people. And then in more developing markets like Vietnam, where some of our team is based, it’s a little bit different, it’s a little bit more employer centric. So, we see two kind of different sides of the world where an employer can still say, I said the terms, I dictate the mandates. I will tell you when and where to work. But you also now already see here those first companies coming up, sort of like really early in that sort of hype cycle where the earlier companies, the more innovative companies are starting to become more employee centric. And then it just basically is kind of like dominos, right? The moment that a couple of companies do it, then all their competitors need to follow if they want to remain competitive for that great talent. And then if all those companies do it right, then other industries will be affected as well. But I think it really starts with, you know, who has the power, is it the employer or the employee? And if the employee I choose, you know, you got it, you got to have a reason why they would choose you.

Jo Meunier [00:12:39] Mm hmm. Absolutely. And that’s one of the good side to competition is that it puts, as you say, more focus on the people.

Daan Von Rossum [00:12:45] Good for some.

Jo Meunier [00:12:46] Yes.

Daan Von Rossum [00:12:47] Stressful for the company, stressful for the HR people. But yes.

Jo Meunier [00:12:51] Yes.

Daan Von Rossum [00:12:52] Great for us as employees.

Jo Meunier [00:12:56] And in terms of hybrid work, what are the current challenges of hybrid work and how can business leaders overcome them?

Daan Von Rossum [00:13:05] Yeah, so I’m obviously exposed to what’s happening in the world, but I’ll focus a bit more on Asia because that’s where I’m based and that’s kind of like where I know the most. But I’m sure this translates to other regions as well. The one thing is that there were a lot of countries here that locked down for quite a long time. If you look at markets like Philippines, they were pretty much fully locked down for about two full years. So, I know that there have been some lockdowns in Europe. There’s been some lockdowns in the U.S. But, you know, a lockdown of a one and a half, two years is like pretty crazy. Singapore as well was locked down for quite a long time before the government finally gradually started opening offices again. So, you know what happens when there’s lockdowns, companies suddenly have to move to fully remote work, right? If they suddenly have to move to a model where everyone is working from home. And again, these may be people that just had a desktop computer at their work. They wouldn’t even have a laptop. So suddenly companies need to jump and go into, you know, all of the digital transformation to quickly go to a model where people can work from home. But of course, if that lasts for longer than a couple of weeks, people start getting used to it and they start finding ways to do it well. So, with that in mind, then, when we go back to the office, it’s really hard for companies to say, oh, suddenly you need to be in the office and employees again. They turn around, they say, But why? We worked for a year and a half extremely well without any major issues and no more issues than we ever had before. Maybe on their own personal wellbeing side.

Daan Von Rossum [00:14:45] But in terms of the outputs for the company. It’s been shown that there was a lot of productivity during that time, and so why would I suddenly go back into the office? And so, what you’re seeing and again, it depends on a bit by market here in Asia in terms of is it a bit more of an employer centric model, is it a bit more of an employee centric model? But what you’re seeing across the board is basically now that you know that you can work well from home, we cannot really just mandate you to come in because again, you would just fold with your feet and go somewhere else. So, then you get into hybrid work, right? So, okay, why don’t you work from home most of the time and come into the office every now and then? Or maybe we set a certain schedule and different companies are adopting that in different ways. We recently did a really great roundtable with Chief People Officers and Chief HR Officers in the region and they shared basically what models are they adapting? How are they doing hybrid work? You know, we had who is the global lead for talent and culture at go to financial big unicorn out of the region here. You know she said we do a sort of choose your own adventure way of hybrid work. So actually, there are three different profiles that employees can choose from. You can either choose to work mostly from home hybrid or mostly from the office, and depending on what you choose, and I think you can adjust that choice every six months, you then get associated benefits with that. So, if you say, you know, hey, go to I’m going to be in the office most of the time you get a dedicated desk and you get all the things that you would need in the office. If you say, I work mostly from home, you get some support and a stipend. I think in terms of creating your Great Home Office, maybe some subsidies for bandwidth for Wi-Fi, and if you say hybrid, then yes, when you come to the office, there is space for you, but it’s not dedicated. Right. And so, employees can then choose what works best for them and the employer can then plan better in terms of running their office.

Daan Von Rossum [00:16:50] And other companies say, you know what, we do one team day a week where all of your team has to come in. Then you have one more day where you can choose to come to work, but you choose which day you come into the office, as long as it’s a minimum of two days in total. And that is maybe then combined with like one big monthly, all hands or town hall or all team day. So, companies are really adopting it in a lot of different ways. And to be honest, whenever we speak to people, leaders and business leaders here in the region, everyone just says sometimes only behind closed doors, but everyone says we’re all just trying to figure it out. This is a really new way of working. There’s a lot of testing still to be done, even the way we’re currently doing it, it may totally change down the line. We just have to sort of find a way and that’s the journey that we’re all on.

Jo Meunier [00:17:37] I love the fact that some of these companies are giving the choice to their employees and they’re saying, for example, in that first example that you gave us, that these three models pick the one that works for you. And that seems to me to make sense to be the way forward. But I imagine one challenge with that and in flexing where you’ve you’re addressing this challenge is how you re-unite the workforce and how when you’ve got people working from home some days in the office, the next, how do you sort of fire up that community spirit? So how is your platform helping to resolve some of those connectivity issues?

Daan Von Rossum [00:18:16] Yeah. So, Jo, this really is one of the biggest challenges that companies face. And in a recent event that we did, someone said when we went remotes, when we were in lockdown, productivity went up, but culture went down. And there was a lot of research, including a recent Microsoft study, that shows that fully remote teams have way less of a sense of connection to the company, even less of a sense of connection to their direct team. So, community connection, connectivity, the sense of company culture really does suffer when people are working in hybrid. And that’s not to say, again, that you couldn’t make it work. It’s just that no one really has done this before and therefore people have to figure it out. And it makes a lot of sense because when we’re all sitting side by side in the office, a lot of the things that we want from, you know, our work environments happen almost organically. It happens by default, right? So, if we’re sitting together side by side, the moment that we stop this interview, we say, hey, we still have 30 minutes open. Like, let’s go grab a cup of coffee and then maybe we exchange some thoughts that we wouldn’t do in a scheduled Zoom meeting, for example. Right? Or maybe you’re sitting around the table with your team and you’re like, hey, let’s go get lunch after this, because we have this, like, new place that we all want to check out. And again, then you get to know each other more personally. You build those connections but those things all kind of disappear if you go into a work mode where, for example, two people choose to come in on Monday, Tuesday, and the rest of the team choose to come in on Wednesday and Thursday. And now part of that team hasn’t really seen each other. And probably what’s even worse is that you don’t see people from beyond your team.

Daan Von Rossum [00:20:00] So people within your company that are not direct team-mates you almost have no reason to really connect with them. So, the way we’re trying to solve it and again, yes, there is a platform that we’ve built and yes, there is technology, but at the end of the day, it’s really just to enable what companies need to do regardless of the platform, which is basically try and find ways to replicate all of the things that we were used to doing. That kind of happened almost organically, almost by default in the office, and sort of make that something that we organize a bit more programmatically and it really comes down to people. So yeah, together and people will probably be the two keywords here, but it really comes down to people because if you’re asking someone to come to the office, the first question usually is, why would I come to the office and when would I come to the office again? Microsoft has done a lot of research about hybrid work. So, one of the stats that they that they provided is that 42% of people say that their biggest challenge in hybrid work is that they don’t know when and why to come to the office. Huma, which is an eight hour tech start up from Laszlo Bock, the chief people officer at Google, did some research around hybrid work. They said the most challenging things for people are maintaining and building relationships with colleagues when they’re not in the office full time. So that’s what we help companies solve. And there’s a couple of things that we do.

Daan Von Rossum [00:21:32] So number one is basically make it visible for people when and where their colleagues will work. So, if I know that all my work besties, as I would call them, are all my favorite team members or colleagues, are going to be in the office on Wednesday, but I had typically planned to come in on Monday and Tuesday. I may either come in an extra day, in which case our customers will be really happy, or I may switch out my Tuesday for my Wednesday if I have that flexibility. So, knowing where your favorite colleagues are, again, that’s the reason you come in, right? It’s not to sit behind your computer and have a meeting with yourself as Anthony Slumbers would say it.

Daan Von Rossum [00:22:10] The second one is basically events and activities, right. So, what happens in the office beyond the fact that there’s people there that I like, what actually happens in that office that’s relevant to me and that will be a reason for me to come in. So that’s where we basically help in creating creative workshops, training and development workshops, wellbeing events, and we really do that based on what we learn about the employees through the data that we collect. And then we also can hyper target those employees about the stuff that’s happening in the office that’s relevant for them. So, there may be ten events for a month that are happening in that new, amazing, lively office because companies now need to invest in it. But which one of those ten things is relevant for me? And again, which of my favorite people are going to go to those events? That’s really the key question that we’re trying to solve. And again, that’s where technology plays a very natural role because, you know, you wouldn’t want to manually spread the words to certain people within your company, especially when it gets into the hundreds or into the thousands. But again, the technology can help there.

Daan Von Rossum [00:23:14] And the third piece is kind of, you know, around the people themselves, right. What could I do to motivate you to get people together? And there was a recent interview between Satya Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft. I think I’ve mentioned Microsoft a few times. It happens to be a partner of ours, but they are doing a lot of research in this field. But Satya sat down with Adam Grant, the organizational psychologist from Wharton, and one of the things he mentioned in that interview, which was very insightful, is that now more than ever, the employee experience really gets delivered through the line manager. So, because we again don’t by default sit together, it really is the line manager for each one of their teams, for each one of their groups to become kind of like a community leader, to become kind of like an events and activities organizer. But we also know that most managers are not really –– let’s just say they don’t have 24 seven in the world of employee engagement. So, it’s typically quite hard for them to even remember that it’s time to do something and then what to do. So, the investment also helps nudge specifically managers, but also employees in general to say, hey, one of your team-mates has a work milestone coming up that could be a great reason to go into the office. It’s been a couple of weeks since you got your whole team together. Here are three or four ideas of fun and innovative ways to get your team together to make everyone feel excited. Hey, there’s a new person joining the team. Why not take them out and do this game that we’ve designed, which is all about getting to know each other better through questions. And so, we help also the manager and the employees themselves to drive that so that it becomes almost like an organic movement too, to get people together. So, it’s a lot of different sort of like elements, but at the end of the day it just comes down to one thing, which is on all the different fronts, what can we do to create reasons for people to come into the office and get together?

Jo Meunier [00:25:21] Fantastic. Well, I mean, we could definitely all do with not just like that from time to time. And you mentioned data a moment ago, and I imagine that it is so important in helping companies to understand how their employees work best and how they interact with their workplace. So, when looking to improve the workplace experience and engagement, how can companies use workplace usage data to their advantage?

Daan Von Rossum [00:25:52] Yes. Unfortunately, data is one of those things that people talk about a lot. It’s just like employee engagement and employee experience are very overused terms. And companies now say that they do a lot with data. In fact, data and insights is one of the big megatrends that that are coming up in most reports for this year. Now, the question is, okay, are companies actually doing something with the data? And the answer is usually no or formally yes. But it’s kind of going into reports that then end up in someone’s desk drawer and don’t know where they get activated, which then at the end of the day, what’s the point of having that data? So, the way we kind of think about it is that at the end of the day, this whole movement, whether it’s hybrid work or flexible work or all the new different working models, it really is about personalization and choice. So, it really is about instead of having a one size fits all working model where everyone comes to the same place at the same time, doing the same work in the same environment, the same never changing office. We really go to a model where it’s much more about what does the workplace looks like for me? And I can basically design my schedule and the way I work. And again, even in the physical office, we see more kind of adjustments around the office. Space may look like this today, but it could look very different six months from now as we’re learning what the office needs to provide in terms of amenities and all of that. All of those changes should really be driven by data. So, the data that basically we collect and that we think every company should collect, whether it’s, you know, as some of our partners used to do through an Excel sheet or a Google sheet or whether it’s through any kind of platform, the kind of data you really want to know is who is working, when and where. Not so much from a you know, let me check if people are performing or if they are coming into the office enough and then berate them when they missed one day out of their requirements for the month. But much more to focus on the policies that we have. Are they working? Can we improve them? And this could be again, it could work really well for one team to have that too flexible day structure for a week. It could be really poor for another team and therefore we want to know by team level, sometimes by role, sometimes by person, you know, are those policies working? So, you want to collect some data around who is moving, where and when. How is the attendance distributed? So do we see a huge spike on Wednesday, but no one is in the office on Friday. When you have that data, you can then make some push towards let’s incentivize people or make it attractive to come on Friday so that we don’t sit with an overcrowded office on certain days and a really underutilized office on other days, which is obviously a big risk when you let people freely choose and they are, you need some kind of air traffic control between the space that you have and how it’s used. Again, also on the type of spaces. So, if you see, for example, that there’s a super high utilization rates for that one big collaboration room, but the three smaller meeting rooms never get used or vice versa. Or that’s the desks are always empty, but the rooms are always full. Then you can make some changes to the office itself. So that’s more on the physical office, the design perspective, and then again on the employee experience employee engagement side, there’s a lot that we can learn.

Daan Von Rossum [00:29:24] So the kind of data that we collect is almost like a social graph that lives on top of whatever infrastructure you use. So, you get to know people more on a personal basis. I now know, you know, who are the people that you would like to be in the office with? So, I can use that. I know what topics you’re interested in, both in terms of what you told us in the sort of onboarding survey that we roll out, what are your interests? What would you like to learn more about? If there’s one thing you could do in the next quarter, what would it be? So that’s one part. But also, then as you’re using the platform, as you’re engaging, what do we really see you gravitate towards? Right? So, you may say, oh, I’m really interested in really reading really difficult academic books, right? Because that’s a great answer to give. But actually, you keep signing up for wellbeing workshops, right? Then we know that we should shift the kind of events and activities that we propose to you towards that. So, getting more data on who is that person, not employee, not just about productivity and when they’re sitting in their office chair but really who is that person? And therefore, how can we constantly come up with new ways to make this an office environment that really works for you? So those are some of the data that we collect and that we can help companies interpret and use to improve the way that they run their hybrid team in their hybrid office.

Jo Meunier [00:30:46] Mm hmm. Fantastic. That’s all about personalization and choice. That’s the future of work that I can get behind. So, we’re just nearing the end of our episode. So, before we go. How can you sum up the past 30 minutes conversation? We’ve just had that two or three takeaways that you think business leaders can take forward from this.

Daan Von Rossum [00:31:09] Well, if there’s one thing I could say, I will not mention Microsoft again. If there’s one thing I could say, I would probably say, you know, can we all. And whether this is driven by the talent market or not. But can we all just start by taking a look at people? Because the whole reason why, you know, I’m an old guy, I could have done anything, you know, beyond starting a new company and going into the craziness of running at an early stage. Start-Up Right. The whole reason why we started this and why our team still gets to work every day to do this really meaningful work is because at the end of the day, we really believe that we all spend so much time working, right? And it doesn’t matter where that is. We all spend so much time at work that if somehow, we can make that a more positive experience, a more generative experience and more meaningful use of time, then we really can impact people in a very positive way. So, I think coming from that, why at the center of what we do, I think you can very, very easily see that if more people would take a people focused approach.

Daan Von Rossum [00:32:14] People have calculated that over the course of our lifetime we may spend up to 90 or 100,000 hours at work. Right. So if we would just take a more people focused approach and really think from the employee up about what the workplace experience should be like, I think a lot of the execution of stuff follows very organically and if you create a workplace experience that is really focused on the employee that’s designed around that person and what they are looking to find in your office, in your workplace, in the way that you engage them, then I believe that the company’s biggest challenge is around attracting and engaging and retaining talent. Will be cells.

Jo Meunier [00:32:58] Fantastic. Well, I have a ton more questions, but I think we’ll have to save those for another day. So just lastly, Darren, how can our listeners get in touch with you if they want to discover more about future work and hybrid work?

Daan Von Rossum [00:33:11] Sure. So always happy to connect with people on LinkedIn. So, my username there is just slash Daan Von Rossum my full name. I have a weekly newsletter also that I send out through their very I’m originally called Future Work. And I, you know, kind of share my thoughts on everything that’s going on and very practically like what company leaders and people leaders can do to make sure they’re competitive in the in the marketplace.

Jo Meunier [00:33:42] Fantastic. Wonderful. Thank you. Well, I appreciate your time today. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation and we look forward to hopefully having you on the podcast again sometime soon.

Daan Von Rossum [00:33:52] That sounds great, Joe. Thank you so much for having me and for the really great conversation today.

Jo Meunier [00:33:57] Wonderful. Thanks, Daan.